Fuel injector clean/refurbish recommendation

[MooseMoose]

Hey all,

 

Looking for recommendations on the best place to get fuel injectors cleaned and/or rebuild. I'm in southern California, but I guess mailing them to a shop is fine, too.

 

For the problem , I've had poor mileage and I think it's an injector stuck open. 3000 miles on this oil change and the oil level is slightly higher than the "max" line in the sight glass. I started dead center between the lines. The bike sat for a while before I bought it, and sat for a while before the PO got it, so gummed injectors are a likely cause.

 

I just finished a tank with a ton of seafoam, but if that doesn't work I guess I  need to flow and recondition these.

 

From a forum search, a couple of years ago people said "Factory Pro" and "Motor Man" for rebuilt injectors, and "Mr. Injector" for service.  Anyone have better or newer experiences?

 

Not looking forward to pulling injectors, but that's life with a low mileage bike that's 17 years old.

[Cogswell]

I used RC Fuel Injection for the injectors on my 6th gen.  Service was quick - and I think it ran about $25 per.  I mailed them with out with no problem.  They're in Torrance if that's close to you.  Cleaning made a large difference in the engine's smoothness, especially at low throttle settings and low rpm.  Definitely worth it.

 

https://www.rceng.com/

[Duc2V4]

+1 on RC Engineering. They did both my 5 and 6 Gen injectors recently. They actually had them done in one day. I was able to drop them off and pick them up, as the project I was working at was in El Segundo so on my way in I dropped them off and although they were ready before I left for home, I picked them up on my way in the next morning.

 

They give you a before and after report and replace all of the o-rings too. It cost $24 per injector making it $96 for all four.

Here's the report from my two cleanings. Top is 6 Gen. As Gogswell said, made a huge difference, my 6 Gen is running better than it ever has once I did this along with a SV sync.

 

 

 

[MooseMoose]

Holy crap Duc -- your 5th gen REALLY needed some injector love!

 

Glad to hear RC had good reviews. I did a google and the closest  is in National city, and their website is a shit show, so I'm not feeling it.  The next closest is RC in Torrance, actually really close to one of my clients' offices! Might be an excuse to take my friends to lunch and drop the injectors, then have them mail them back. Even mailed in it sounds like a 4 day turnaround.

 

I took a 75 mile ride today. Alas, inland is ever so slightly hotter than hell today -- 106 at 6:30 PM according to a bank's sign -- so I didn't want to go farther. It's running a little better than it was before the seafoam, but it still sometimes goes rough at idle, and it's not drastically different. After I got home I looked at my maps and one is VERY much different than the other, especially down low. I'm almost certain I have at least one drippy injector now as the rapidbike is obviously trying super hard to balance the f/a there. Even a pretty big correction won't fix an injector that doesn't shut off all the way.

 

Either way, you guys set my mind at ease. Seems the worst that can happen is I get much more even injectors, the best is that the low end smoothes out and it solves my shite mileage problems at the same time.

[Cogswell]

1 hour ago, Duc2V4 said:

+1 on RC Engineering. They did both my 5 and 6 Gen injectors recently. They actually had them done in one day. I was able to drop them off and pick them up, as the project I was working at was in El Segundo so on my way in I dropped them off and although they were ready before I left for home, I picked them up on my way in the next morning.

 

They give you a before and after report and replace all of the o-rings too. It cost $24 per injector making it $96 for all four.

Here's the report from my two cleanings. Top is 6 Gen. As Gogswell said, made a huge difference, my 6 Gen is running better than it ever has once I did this along with a SV sync.

 

 

 

 

The improvement here must have been much more dramatic than mine.  I had 3 showing "Good" and one "Fair" prior to cleaning - and I still felt and noticed the difference.  No fuel additive is ever going to clean injectors as thoroughly as removal and a bench clean.   Particularly on 6th gens where stumbling and rough running seems to be an all too common complaint, other systems / factors often catch the blame when the larger issue is more likely dirty injectors. 

 

 

[MooseMoose]

21 minutes ago, Cogswell said:

 other systems / factors often catch the blame when the larger issue is more likely dirty injectors. 

 

 

 

Good point.  Makes me think, too.

 

You know, my bike also vibrates a little more than it should. My 3rd gen was smooth as glass, but I rode 5th gens before I bought mine. While they had more than the 3rd/4th gens, I swear it was not this much.  I almost wish I had a way of quantifying it, so I could prove if it smooths after the injector service. It'll be a fun experiment, seeing how things like idle, starter valve sync, and vibration change with fresh injectors.

[Duc2V4]

53 minutes ago, Cogswell said:

 

The improvement here must have been much more dramatic than mine.  I had 3 showing "Good" and one "Fair" prior to cleaning - and I still felt and noticed the difference.  No fuel additive is ever going to clean injectors as thoroughly as removal and a bench clean.   Particularly on 6th gens where stumbling and rough running seems to be an all too common complaint, other systems / factors often catch the blame when the larger issue is more likely dirty injectors. 

 

 

Ironically the 5 Gen was running good and no issues and was actually doing great MPG wise despite the poor injector states but yes, the difference in how the 6 Gen runs is dramatic.

 

The 5 Gen is currently in a rebuild state but should be back in the road soon. I'm hoping that it will also be a dramatic difference and even better MPG. The 6 Gen MPG is a tiny bit better and more consistent.

[JZH]

Just in case it happens to you, after I got my injectors cleaned I couldn't get the bike to run on more than one cylinder (i.e., it didn't run at all!).  After many hours of desperation I took some advice from VFRD and tapped on the injectors with a hard object: Sure enough, three of the just-cleaned injectors were stuck and my tapping freed them.  I suppose some of the cleaning solution had left them just sticky enough to keep them from functioning (despite being very clean!)

 

Ciao,

[MooseMoose]

Thanks for the tip JZH. Hope I don't have to do it, but now I know if I have the problem.

 

One of the cleaner outfits actually mentions that they oil the injectors in case they aren't installed right away. Maybe this is one problem they are hoping to avoid.

 

I'll report back here after it's done. Gonna go ride now, but I think I need to do them Tuesday or next week at the latest.

[MooseMoose]

Well I got them out tonight. That was... special. #4 was literally wet with fuel at the tip. I'll send them to RC tomorrow and should be able to get it all back together next weekend.

 

I think I am going to replace the coolant hoses beneath the throttlebodies, too. None of them are leaking, but the one leading to the Y looks bloated so why not? Once again I am reminded that she's pretty on the outside, but still an old bike.

[Terry]

Moose if you replace the hoses, do yourself a favour and change out the thermostat at the same time. Hate to see you having to go deep diving again too soon.

[VFROZ]

And the O rings at the head outlets.

Cheap to do, and ugly and square when I did mine.

[MooseMoose]

OK guys, will do. My thermostat seems good, but they don't last forever.

 

For o-rings -- looking at the service manual and the parts blowup I've got one big one for the thermostat housing, and two smaller ones  (one each for the hose connectors) that are completely under the throttle bodies. Probably should grab those 23mm rings for the other hose connectors, too. Does that seem right?

 

They're less than $3 each for oem. Seems well worth doing it now considering the labor time involved in pulling the airbox and throttle bodies.

 

 

[VFROZ]

If you have any doubt on the bike and its service history, you could get a thermostat housing top. 

If there is air in the system and left to sit, corrosion will form there. 

If it's been looked after it shouldn't be a problem. 

When I did mine, and tried to clean the gunk from that lid, it was so thin I put a screwdriver right through it. 

Luckily I had a spare complete housing and hoses from a low k 6th gen that I picked up for $20. 

 

[MooseMoose]

I don't have the whole history, but from condition I am sure this bike was well taken care of. The only problem was that it sat between when the first owner sold it to a dealer, and then the guy I bought it from (he shipped it out from the dealership in the midwest)  was very handy, but not a mechanic. So he did work, but couldn't get it running right so it was really hard to ride. That's why he sold it to me, in fact, but I think it sat for a year before he let it go. I'm guessing the gas got gummy in that time, and that is probably what killed the clutch as well.

 

That said, I'll inspect the housing carefully. Thanks for the head's up. Sometimes things look better on the outside than they are.

[Terry]

I would think that provided the cooling system stays full of a decent coolant, corrosion ought not to be a problem. I know just what Oz is referring to however with my ST1100 which had been parked up for 10 years with a partially drained cooling system (simply caused and easily fixed by a crack in the hose between radiator and reservoir). The thermostat was rotting away, and the radiator cap fitting was a little perforated. Because I'm cheap I used some Permatex Cold Weld epoxy goop to seal the holes which has held up so far for 20,000km.

 

[JZH]

On 9/7/2017 at 7:38 PM, MooseMoose said:

OK guys, will do. My thermostat seems good, but they don't last forever.

 

For o-rings -- looking at the service manual and the parts blowup I've got one big one for the thermostat housing, and two smaller ones  (one each for the hose connectors) that are completely under the throttle bodies. Probably should grab those 23mm rings for the other hose connectors, too. Does that seem right?

 

They're less than $3 each for oem. Seems well worth doing it now considering the labor time involved in pulling the airbox and throttle bodies.

 

Unfortunately, I don't know any US-based sources, but here in the UK I can order any o-ring or seal I desire (based on dimension) for mere pence each from places like Polymax.  There must be US rubber products suppliers, no?  If the dimensions of an o-ring are listed in the Honda parts book, there's little reason to buy OEM...

 

Ciao,

[MooseMoose]

Thanks JZH. I bet I can get some cheaper, since they're just standard o rings not custom gaskets.

 

Though, for me,  I spent like $12 to get ALL the o-rings, and I was ordering a couple of other parts at the same time so no extra shipping fees. It'll all get shipped to me as one bunch and I don't have to think about it too hard.  However, there has to be a source locally for stuff like that! They do have exact dimensions in the manual, so I might look if I ever get bored one evening.

 

Edit to add: I did something similar with fasteners. Those gold and black bolts doing things like holding the tank to the hinge and the hinge to the frame aren't anything special. I needed to replace one and they were $3 from Honda, but for $4.50 I got a bag of 20. Now, every time I pull a bolt that size  (there are about 10 of them on the bike) if it looks less than perfect I replace it with something pretty. I did the same thing with one of the black sizes. I now have like 30 bolts more than I need, but it still seems like a better bargain.

[MooseMoose]

Parts have started rolling in.

 

I bought a silicone hose set from the ebay. AS3 Performance, and they look really good. I've seen Samco, but only on a bike, but these don't look any lower quality. Time will tell, and we'll see how they fit. But they were $135 delivered, and it took less than a week from the UK. Samcos cost $300 more so I'm not willing to go there.

 

One warning if anyone else is doing this, they don't include the wax unit hoses. So, it's really a 98-99 kit.  I just found a dude on ebay selling 6mm id bulk heater hose by the foot and bought some there, since those lines aren't molded or anything, but it's still a little annoying to buy a kit and not get everything.

[MooseMoose]

Got my injectors back today. As I guessed, one was much worse than the others.

 

 

Flow | Pattern

 

Before:
237.0  Fair

246.0  Good

223.0  Dripping

231.0  Fair

 

After:

250  Excellent

251  Excellent

249  Excellent

250  Excellent

 

Can't get it up and running tonight as my thermostat isn't due until Friday, but I'll put the thottlebody back together and be ready to plug in and go when it arrives.  Excited to see the difference when running on all 4 cylinders, not just 3 and a constant drip.

 

Oh, edit to add: I did go with RC Engineering in Torrance. They got my injectors Monday morning and had them done Tuesday afternoon.  All the small parts (filters, rubber seats) were returned and replaced with new ones. They were very responsive.

[sfdownhill]

Moose - thanks for posting. I'm looking forward to reading your results. How many miles are on your bike? And what was your source for bags of 20 pretty fasteners?

 

I'm stacking up a round of 'while I'm in there' service for my 2001: valve adjustment, thermostat/oring replacement, injector service, starter valve synch and new plugs. Thanks also to Cogswell, Duc2V4, JZH, Terry, and VFROZ for contributing - this thread has a lot of good meat on its bones.

[MooseMoose]

bike has 24000 and change now. Had a little under 21,000 when I bought it.

 

I got the fasteners from the Amazon.  Lemme see if I can find a link:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01GUEQ300/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

You can bang around and get different sizes and styles. I guess they're a touch more expensive than I remember at Amazon. I must have been thinking of McMaster prices there.

 

I got the 6x20 flange bolts and 6x12 black flange bolts that are all over the bike (they're $1 each from Honda) at $6.40 for 50 bolts from McMaster-Carr.

Here are 6x20 (in zinc, not yellow chromate zinc)

https://www.mcmaster.com/#95735a221/=19dk6vh

and the black phosphate 6x12s

https://www.mcmaster.com/#98093a432/=19dkcmy

You can get black phospate 6x20s, too.

 

Granted, shipping is more expensive than amazon, but I was buying other stuff at McMaster-Carr, so it doesn't really count.  And, I've used the extras for other projects to kind of mitigate the cost. But $8 for 100 feels better than a dollar each. Though I'm probably out of pocket the same cost as just buying the bolts when ordering Honda parts.

 

Anyway, I ended up tearing more apart because I pulled all the hoses of and realized it will never be this easy to drop the oil cooler and do the front spark plugs. So this has turned into:

 

1. Refresh the fuel injectors

2. Clean and reset the throttle body

3. Spark Plugs

4. All new cooling hoses

5. Radiators off the bike, so cleaned up (there was a lot of grime on the cooling fan)

6. Thermostat replacement

7. Thermostat housing and water elbow O-rings replaced

8. Coolant flush (obviously)

9. Air Filter

 

When this is all together, I guess items 10 and 11 are oil change and starter valve sync.

 

I swear I originally thought I'd be able to lift the fuel rails like on a 6th gen, pop out the injectors, and not have to do anything else.  That'll teach me.

[sfdownhill]

Cool. Thanks for the feedback. Digging into a motorcycle you want to do right by is definitely stepping in quicksand, punching the tar baby, [fill in your own time-suck metaphor here...]

[JZH]

Unfortunately, zinc will rust.  Try eBay for stainless fasteners--there's usually tons of them on offer, not just the usual hex, socket cap, button and countersunk, but also specialised bike-specific stainless (and titanium...).  Sorry, I don't know the US sources.

 

Ciao,

[sfdownhill]

Thanks JZH - don't know why I didn't think of ebay. Silly.