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Bennyboy

New owner - a couple of kinks.

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Hello fello VFRers,

 

I'm new to VFR but not to Honda or the biking world. A fried looking at bikes led me to see an advert for the VFR and I was instantly in love. A couple days later I drove 9 hours to pick her up.

 

Previous owner was a man of few words and from what I can tell not so mechanically minded. 70,000km and DOES NOT RUN - owner believes it is the carb from sitting/bad fuel. He is a plumber by trade and simply hadn't ridden her for a couple years and wanted to sell her to buy a Harley. That is about all the information I could gleam in 30 minutes, he simply claimed he couldn't remember any more. Garaged and appears reasonable. The bike has had a very low speed fall at some stage but fairings were repaired and no damage to casings etc. (just the bar end and rear break pedal). A few fairing bolts are missing. It came with the rear cowl.

 

Now I've had some good experience fixing up a couple carbs and getting bikes running so I wasn't too concerned about the non-running condition. It was cheap enough and frankly, I simply like to tinker. And this isn't a 1979 CB, this is a 1994, how hard could it be?...

 

I was super excited when I got it home and poured some petrol in to try and get it going. Fuel tank cap not locking/unlocking well at all. Fuel streamed out through a hole in the tank. Job #1 = refurbish the tank and fuel cap.

 

Further inspection saw fuel squirting out like a stuck aorta from some fuel hoses. Closer inspection saw it coming from a stainless steel t-piece which someone had already tried to fix by adding tape. This had me perplexed and then I remembered the previous owner's employment. The t-piece was designed for water and the tape was the well known plumbing sealant tape. The tape was partially melted by fuel. Job #2 = replace t-piece (part# 17193-MN5-000)

 

Fuel petcock appears modified and dicey at best. Best I replace. Any suggestions?

 

Then I opened the carbs...and my heart sank. I'll attach some photo's. I'm just a tinkerer but I've never seen carbs in such bad condition. The bowls were filled with what looked like sand and broken glass. The float needles required PRYING from the seats! One choke valve assembly has snapped!! Job #3&#4 - clean up carbs and repair broken bits.

 

So I broke the assembly apart. Completely apart. Ultrasonic cleaned all that was metal. Checked diaphragms (which contained chunks of a filter of days past). Cleaned jets. All is looking better. My main concern is with the seats. Two in particular appeared to suffer a lot of oxidization and pitting. I used a small amount of soft metal polish and a fine cloth covered probe to polish the seats and remove oxidization. They came up surprisingly well but I'm still dubious. I put hours into these things and I don't even know if it runs yet. I also managed to lose one screw (part no. 16108-MW0-750) which holds an ACV assembly in place.

 

I've ordered 4 new aftermarket float needles (16155-413-751). I like to get OEM but given my concerns with the seats at the moment I don't want to spend all that money.

I also ordered one new needle jet holder (16165-MV4-000) as one of them was definitely cross threaded in. 3 hours of a mechanic mate drilling it out. He did an unbelievable job.

 

I'm yet to order the replacement starter valve assembly (16046-MZ7-640). They're hard to find, is this something that breaks often? Can anyone suggest an alternative?? It's just the head of the brass piston which has snapped off. I'm thinking I might be alright with just 3 carbs operating under choke...opinions?

 

I still have to get the missing screw - I'm thinking a hardware store might suffice for now.

 

There are no used carb parts available for this model in my state. There is a 91 model which might be available for parts and one guy selling the full carb assembly from a 95. I'm thinking that the 91 starter valve isn't compatible. I concede that I should have probably just bought the second hand carbs but at the time it wasn't an option. Now that I've put all that effort into these bad boys (ultrasonic cleaned and painfully polished the seats) I'm thinking I'll try get these going before forking out money for the used set. Sound like a good plan? I think I need to check with others or I kinda get wrapped up in tinker-land and over invest my time and effort. The last photo is post ultrasonic. I only used a non-toxic alkaline mixture.

 

While I'm at it. I'd like to check the valve clearances. Is this pretty straight forward in the frame??

 

I'm really looking forward to giving this girl the treatment she deserves.

 

BJ

 

p.s. Yes, I'm aware the rims aren't stock. I'm not sure what the deal is there.

 

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Welcome Benny to VFRD from the northern hemisphere :beer:

 

 

for a while in them early days, gold rims were in fashion, to mimic ducati I guess :tongue:

 

16108-MW0-750  is still listed as available here in the Netherlands

https://www.cmsnl.com/gl1500c-valkyrie-1997-v-austria_model3259/screw_16108mw0750/#whereused (comes up for a Goldwing?)

 

The starter valve assembly indeed is n/a

https://www.cmsnl.com/products/starter-valve-set_16046mz7640/#.Waf2MMhJZaQ

 

 

checking valve clearances can be done no problems with the engine in the frame. chances are you won't need to adjust anything though... Had mine checked for the 1st time at 90,000km, just for the heck of it.  Only 1 was out of spec range (too wide; by design they should narrow over time).   But hey, if you like tinkering...:goofy:

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Welcome to the forum!

 

As for your bike (and the PO) I think I get the picture...  (Btw, your Honda wing tank decal is missing...)

 

Those carbs look like they've been to the beach.  I have not seen that before.  

 

The petcock can be rebuilt.  You can still buy new ones from Honda, too.  I rebuilt mine.  Easy peasy.  Drill off her rivet heads and apart she comes.  There are several o-rings inside.  NRP in the UK makes rebuild kits.  I think I did a couple of posts about my rebuilding experiences either here or (more likely) on the BikersOracle VFR forum (UK).  Drill and tap for some M3 or M4 screws and button her up.

 

A screw's a screw.  Honda doesn't use any funky thread pitches (apart from the M10s).

 

You can definitely check the valve clearances in the frame, but it would be easier if the radiator wasn't there!

 

Good luck.  You sound like you've got this handled.  Apart from NRP, another interesting source for carb rubber bits is: http://www.litetek.co/Carb_Kit_Honda_VFR750_1994-1997.html  Run by an expat in Thailand, I believe.

 

Ciao,

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Thank you, gentlemen. I'll be sure to check out those links.

 

[Sigh]. I didn't take a photo of the worst carb bowl but here is a pic of one of the better ones. Maybe he used the bike to clear drains or something. The thought of a jaded ex-wife pouring sand into his tank runs through my mind. I sure hope that fuel filter did it's best!!!

 

I'll be sure to replace the tank decal, it's on the list.

 

I'm surprised the float needle seats aren't a replaceable item. I know they are on most other bikes.

 

Fingers crossed the carb isn't representative of the engine condition.

 

BJ

 

 

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Good job on the VFR salvation Benny. You did say you like to tinker...

 

I gave up supporting my local Honda dealer; it's not their fault but the importer doesn't like to keep stock so everything is "3-4 weeks ex Japan, on indent" and then they charge you for the privilege. So I now buy off Partzilla in the US, their shipping rates are very reasonable and most things ship out in a couple of days, and their prices are reasonable, the net result is I get genuine parts in about 7-10 days and at 2/3 of the local price. 

 

 

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They're not that bad honestly.  You don't need float needles.  All you need to do is to get the portion of the float needle that moves the float free. Most of the time this can be accomplished with pb blaster and a small straight screwdriver.  As for the cr@p on the float needles, a little metal polish on a q tip and you're back in business.  You can use the metal polish sparingly on the vacuum slide bores, vacuum slides (yes, I know they are plastic), and the float pins. Be careful around the float needle tips...they're rubber, and will come off.  Also, use a q tip in a small drill with some polish and polish the needle valve bores themselves.  It will help the needle valves seat better and allow for less friction when the needle valves are traveling up and down in the bore.

 

As far as the jets, main and air/slow...I use a fine wire wheel to remove much of the outside bs, then soak them in either Berrymans's carb cleaner, or use Carb and choke cleaner.  The idle/slow/air jet may prove difficult and may need to soak for a bit, or you could use a small tool that they sell online with varying size wires in it.  Mine has proven priceless. 

 

Hope this helps

 

btw, your gas overflowed out the carbs because the needle valves were stuck in their bores and it just went right out the overflow tube

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btw, I just posted a set of 4th gen carbs that are in FAR superior shape than yours and only need a cursory going over....100, and shipping to Canada

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Thanks Terry - I just ordered some things...

 

Thanks mcrw, for the vote of confidence - unfortunately I've invested so much time into this particular carb set it's become a bit of a mission to see if I can get them working. Given I've already ordered some things for them I think it best I wait to see if I can get it going. Failing that I will definitely see if your carbs are still on offer. As for the float valve seats, I hit them with metal polish and several q-tips for quite some time (hours). I also used a probe wrapped in cotton to remove the stubborn parts. I'm mainly concerned (and amazed) about some pitting around the area where the float needle sits. Just waiting on parts for now.

 

Ps - Those gen3 rear wheels do look nice don't they!

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yes, the terd gen wheels are nice....I've got a few more coming my way....hehe.  the web is a wonderful thing.....The bike in my pic is Charlotte, she's long gone.  I have Scarlet now, but maybe for not much longer. I have a line on a mint 93 (which I have never had and always wanted).  I mean it's perfect, and so is the price.  Scarlet may be going up for sale...if the 93  fits my bill

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I know I'm jumping ahead, but as soon as you get the carbs figured out, and it seems like you are well on your way, check the recharging system via "the drill". This is the weak point of these bikes.

While I have had success cleaning jets, I find nothing works better, especially with pilot jets, than buying new ones. Few things suck more than putting everything back together just to learn than one isn't quite clean enough.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

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Just an update -

 

So my life has been too busy to achieve much but I think I'm done with the carbs.

 

I've replaced the jet holder I snapped and all the float needles with aftermarket ones. I'm a little dubious of the aftermarket float needles as they just don't look quite the same as the OEM ones. I've managed to get the assembly completely apart and back together again. My fingers are crossed. I've put in a couple pics of the assembly back together. Honda were very creative with the design of all the pipes! Due to my working environment I wasn't able to source all the rubber seals and rings. I note that the manual states that they should be replaced but it just wasn't an option. Toes are crossed for these ones.

 

I managed to order the correct fuel t-joint and do away with all the plumbers tape.

 

I havne't been able to source a starter valve assembly (choke valve) but I'm thinking that 3 out of 4 should get her running and warmed up just fine. I should be able to replace the valve without pulling the carbs off if needed. If anyone has first hand experience in this please let me know.

 

Questions

I know this sounds dumb but providing the jets are screwed in and relatively tight, is there any set amount of turns that they should be installed at? To clarify, they all have their respective screw ports and relevant thread, surely there isn't a certain amount of turns a jet should be tightened??

 

I understand the idle screw and the mixture screw have settings which are relevant to each carb and bike and will require tuning. What what I read in the manual, I simply tighten them up and then back them out 2.5 turns before fitting them back to the bike to try and start it. Once it's running I'll play around with them all until smooth. At this point I may take it to a professional to tune it - this will be motivation dependant.

 

I'm yet to repair the tank, I'll be buying a kit and trying it myself. I'm sure the filters will be cactus. Any suggestions on aftermarket filters? Would you guys replace all the fuel lines to ensure rust isn't laying in them ready to ruin the new filters I put in?

 

Thanks in advance for your opinions and knowledge.

 

Benny

 

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Help!

 

Ive almost got everything ready to go, just going to reverb the rusted tank internals then I'll try fire her up and see what I'm working with. Fingers crossed for no bent rods or something horrific like that. 

 

Ive got one issue I need solved. The previous owner had a stainless steel t-joint which I have now replaced with an appropriate OEM one. The t-joint was approximately 8mm on two ends and what looks like 10mm on the final. The hose that connects appears to have the same brown plastic already inside it with little protruding. Previous owner had the steel t piece with plumbing tape running into this (I think, I forgot to take a photo). Am I missing a connection? Is that plastic bit meant to be inside the tube? Have I stuffed up the hose route??!

 

looking forward to hearing from you guys/gals!!

 

 

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No, no missing connection.  That's your fuel pump line to the carbs.  Remove the inserted brown portion of the t coupling and verify that there is a clamp on the hose.  It more than likely won't leak, but better safe than sorry

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What's the stainless t-joint look like?  (Wanna sell it?)  Those plastic OEM tubes do break, so be careful...

 

Ciao,

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Thanks guys I've got it all hooked up and will try starting it soon. I've just resealed the tank and one of my favourite thongs (flip-flop). 5 days until I can fill it so I'll be tinkering using a bottle.

 

JZH - mate, you must be kidding? I'm sure once you see the pic you'll understand my confusion. If it worked I wouldn't have even noticed it wasn't OEM. The plumbers tape kinda gave it away. As did the stream of fuel spraying out but that was overshadowed by the pinhole leaks coming out the rust holes in the tank. To answer your question though, if you want it it's all yours for free. I'll even toddle down to the post office and send it to you if you're willing to pay the freight.

 

Sigh. I hope this bike is a little easier to get along with once I turn the key although I'm sure those carbs will be a pain to tune IF the float valves are ok.

 

BJ

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It's ALIVE!!!!

 

I couldn't resist so I put a bit of fuel through it. It took a while but eventually started.

 

PRO's

  • It runs!! Yay! I was so worried about a busted piston.
  • No smoke from the exhaust (heaps from the manifold but that must be from the degreaser.
  • It sounds so awesome!

CON's (I'm a cynical bastard)

  • My choke doesn't seems to work. Only on the upper extremity has an effect and it isn't desirable. It seems to 'flood' the bike and it chokes out.
  • Ticking sound coming from engine. I've completely changed the oil and filter.
  • Idle adjustment screwed all the way out and it won't drop below 1800rpm when warmed up. That and the above issue tells me I may have a vacuum issue.
  • Right hand indicator makes the dash go all screwy. I'll check the fuses when the sun comes up.
  • I can't ride it yet due to the idle issue and I still need to check over things :(

Ultimately it feels like a win today.

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15 hours ago, Bennyboy said:

Thanks guys I've got it all hooked up and will try starting it soon. I've just resealed the tank and one of my favourite thongs (flip-flop). 5 days until I can fill it so I'll be tinkering using a bottle.

 

JZH - mate, you must be kidding? I'm sure once you see the pic you'll understand my confusion. If it worked I wouldn't have even noticed it wasn't OEM. The plumbers tape kinda gave it away. As did the stream of fuel spraying out but that was overshadowed by the pinhole leaks coming out the rust holes in the tank. To answer your question though, if you want it it's all yours for free. I'll even toddle down to the post office and send it to you if you're willing to pay the freight.

 

Sigh. I hope this bike is a little easier to get along with once I turn the key although I'm sure those carbs will be a pain to tune IF the float valves are ok.

 

BJ

IMG_9916.JPG

 

That's a first-rate bodge job right there... Broken plastic tubing re-used as a bushing!  Gotta keep the 'ol plumbers tape in mind for next time.  I do love shiny stainless bits, but I think it's probably not worth the postage, but thanks for offering!

 

The ticking sound will be your valves.  You should probably check the clearances per the manual and replace shims as necessary.  It's not exactly an enjoyable task, but it's not especially difficult.

 

The VFR sound can be addictive.

 

Ciao,

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13 hours ago, Bennyboy said:

Ticking sound coming from engine. I've completely changed the oil and filter.

 

Whilst it is unlikely the culprit on your bike there was an issue with some 4th gen where they had excessive camshaft end float. As I recall, a mod was done to the bearing caps to increase oil flow and dampen the knocking.

 

Unfortunately, article #54 on the Texas VFR Garage has a broken link.

 

Try a search for VFR750 camshaft end float or vfr750 camshaft side thrust for more info.

 

But as I said, try all the easy fixes first before diving into serious engine mods.

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Forgot about that!  Here's the Honda Technical Information bulletin from 1996:

 

VFRCamKnockFix.thumb.jpg.3a49a01a594080f31c3b5e96f34c7d6a.jpg

 

Ciao,

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Oh nice, thanks guys. Going by the noise I'd say this is the issue I have. I've got to do something similar to my CB750 but this one will be a lot easier to get to. Thanks very much for the suggestion. I daresay the valve clearances will need to be checked and the odd one adjusted so I may as well do this as the same time. Are you of the opinion this is a MAJOR issue and the bike shouldn't be ridden? I was hoping to get the carbs squared away before opening up the top end. I guess I'd feel like I wasn't working on a lemon if I could ride it a little.

 

On the carb front, I've tightened the mixture screws almost all the way down and the idle RPM has fallen from 1800 to 1400, but I don't really have much play left in the idle screws. I kept burning my hands and ended up cracking the shits for the day. I'm contemplating taking it to a shop to have the carbs properly tuned but I have a feeling I'm going to be sickened by the price. I'll get a quote tomorrow.

 

My tank is 48hrs away from being able to take fuel. I'm really happy the way the tank has come up after I cleaned, etched, de-rusted and relined the tank. 

 

The bike has been dropped and the right brake pedal is been bent. I'm going to try bend it back but I'm confident it will snap and I'll be welding it back together. 

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It depends on the cause of the noise.  If it's because the valves are not adjusted, I wouldn't ride it, but if it's the end-float issue, that's more of a "cosmetic" issue which wouldn't stop me riding it.  I would check the valve clearances and then decide the next step re the cams.

 

The brake pedal is steel on that bike (I have FR-FV footpegs & hangers on my FP), so (unlike aluminium) it should be fine to bend it straight.

 

Ciao,

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Update - 

 

I've contracted man-flu and cracked the shits. Yesterday I put the tank on and she idled at 4000rpm and refused to come down. Gave me every sign of a vacuum leak.

 

This morning it was idling rough but happily back down to 1400 rpm. So I called a mechanic. I decided this bike deserves some kindness after the treatment she's had. I figured I could fluff around for weeks trying to get the mix right. So the mechanic turned up and produced a set of gauges to do the carb tune. Sweeet! Unfortunately he spent a rather long time (30 minutes) trying to tune it using cylinder 3 instead of cylinder 1 because he owns 2 VF1000 and claims they have a different firing order. Once I explained the firing order (thanks to the service manual) he got it all sorted. It's now running quite well. The ticking has settled down too, I presume it was the carbs.

 

In the process of refurbishing the tank I took a short cut. I didn't test the petcock after I removed all the varnish. It seems it's "off" position is more like "trickle" position now. I'm going to fix it before I put it back on because I'm already dubious about the quality of the float seats as it is. Can anyone suggest an aftermarket fuel petcock? It seems Honda had great faith or little concern that their fuel petcock's servicing needs.  

 

Also, the throttle is a little sticky. I'll spray the cables with something like  degreaser or would you recommend WD40?

 

So close....

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4 hours ago, Bennyboy said:

 

 

Also, the throttle is a little sticky. I'll spray the cables with something like  degreaser or would you recommend WD40?

 

So close....

 

Loosen/take off the bar end weight and see if the stickyness is still there... 

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18 hours ago, Bennyboy said:

In the process of refurbishing the tank I took a short cut. I didn't test the petcock after I removed all the varnish. It seems it's "off" position is more like "trickle" position now. I'm going to fix it before I put it back on because I'm already dubious about the quality of the float seats as it is. Can anyone suggest an aftermarket fuel petcock? It seems Honda had great faith or little concern that their fuel petcock's servicing needs.  

 

You can rebuild the petcock.  Drill out the rivets and tap for M3 or M4 screws.  NRP in the UK has rebuild kits, or you can make your own kit using o-rings.  Nothin' to it, really.  (There are no aftermarket petcocks that I know of.)

 

Ciao,

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Thanks for the advice once again.

 

Second hand petcock available for $70. Pretty rich for a roll of the dice I say. NRP will send it for $45 but I'll be waiting a couple weeks at best. Australia....far away from everywhere else.

 

I'm currently soaking the tap in trans oil. I've heard good things about it refurbishing diaphragms although I'm pretty sure I've buggered it given all the carb cleaner I forced through it. If that fails, as I would expect, I'll try referb the petcock myself with some o-rings. 

 

 

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