Synthetic Diesel Oil for Motorcycle?

[BusyLittleShop]

I saved your observations FJ12Ryder on the air cooled GS1000G temperature drop and may I have your permission to quote your findings in other forums???

 

Thank 540Rat for the interesting opinions and test results of zinc in the oil as they were gleaned from his blog... perhaps his site is worth another look???

https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/

[coupedupsubie]

When it comes to viscosity choices it generally depends on where you live. For the 4th Gen Vfr's there are 4 recommendations on oil viscosity. If you live and ride in weather below 35 degrees Fahrenheit then a 10w40 or 10w30 oil is recommended, I would probably go with 10w30 during the colder months then 10w40 during the warmer if temperatures get up around 90 degrees Fahrenheit. I personally could run 10w30 rear round due to living in Maine. If you live in warmer areas then you can run 20w40 as you don't need the low viscosity for cold starts. The first number in oil only matters for starting.

 

The 3,000 hp diesel engines that move the vessel I work on show an oil temperature of around 190. They run the common diesel grade 15w40.

 

Yes, lower viscosity oil do reduce drag on the engine. Steam turbines use two oil systems because of their design, first is actually high viscosity oil to lift the shaft off the bearings then a lower viscosity oil once the oil wedge forms. The switch to a lower viscosity oil is for less drag on the shaft. 

 

In the end if you are serious about getting every last bit of horsepower out of your engine then monitoring your temperatures is what you will want to do. I just wouldn't go outside of the manufacturers recommendations.

 

There is a lot of good basic knowledge in 540Rat's blog, but it is all information that most advanced high school automotive classes teach. It is the whole oil test and ranking that is off to me. He needs to create a no B.S. post that specifically outlines his test setup and calculations in order for me to actually believe what he found.

[FJ12Ryder]

Heck, you can quote the hell out of me. And I was surprised that it happened, but it does support what other people have observed over the years: higher viscosity leads to higher temperatures with all things being equal.

[BusyLittleShop]

4 hours ago, coupedupsubie said:

  When it comes to viscosity choices it generally depends on where you live. For the 4th Gen Vfr's there are 4 recommendations on oil viscosity

 

My 94 RC45 has the same viscosity choices as your 4th Gen but
currently Honda only recommends a 10W30 360 days a year regardless of
outside temperature for all their new bikes including the 8th Gen
VFR800... so technically speaking you could run a 30wt all year like I
do...

 

Yes I run a 5W30w all year because it gives the right flow at the normal engine operating
temperature of 212ºF and that would be the viscosity of 10 at operating temps... so that
means for every 1000 rpms increase of oil pressure increases another 10 psi... a 30wt
flows more oil at higher rpms which flows more oil between the critical bearings
which carries away more heat and I'm not wasting HP just pumping oil through the blow
off valve... 40wt and 50wt builds pressure at the expense of flow and I wastes HP by blowing

oil through the pressure relief valve...

 

30wt psi
1000 10
2000 20
3000 30
4000 40
5000 50
6000 60
7000 70
8000 80
9000 90
10000 99
11000 99 blow off by the pressure relief valve

 

40wt psi
1000 12
2000 24
3000 36
4000 48
5000 72
6000 84
7000 96
8000 99 blow off by the pressure relief valve
9000 99
10000 99
11000 99

 

50wt psi
1000 15
2000 30
3000 45
4000 60
5000 75
6000 90
7000 99 blow off by the pressure relief valve
8000 99
9000 99
10000 99
11000 99

You see  I went to trouble to installed a digital oil pressure gauge on

MrRC45 to know... 30w at 8000 rpms 82 Psi close enough to perfect...

 

We should learn that flow is what really lubricates our engines not
pressure... pressure and flow are inverse proportional... you can have
pressure at the expense of flow... an increased in flow is an
increased in cooling by the oil... an increase in flow works harder to
separate the engine parts that are under very high stress... an
increase in flow means less internal drag and more HP at the rear
wheel... its no brainier that 30 weights flow more than 40...

 

 

[FJ12Ryder]

I agree with most of what you're putting out there, but I tend to disagree to a certain extent that flow is the be-all and end-all, and pressure doesn't matter.

 

A roller bearing engine will be very high flow and low pressure because the rollers don't need any pressure to speak of. Unlike a plain bearing engine, which will fail if you have very low pressure

and high flow.

[coupedupsubie]

 

4 hours ago, FJ12Ryder said:

I agree with most of what you're putting out there, but I tend to disagree to a certain extent that flow is the be-all and end-all, and pressure doesn't matter.

 

A roller bearing engine will be very high flow and low pressure because the rollers don't need any pressure to speak of. Unlike a plain bearing engine, which will fail if you have very low pressure

and high flow.

I think what BLS is saying is that there is a point where the flow is optimized while enough pressure is maintained. Plain bearings work mostly off an oil wedge that is formed due to the rotation of the shaft, the importance of pressure is to ensure these bearings have oil flow through them keeping them cool. Most of the wear on a plain bearing takes place at start-up. Many large(power generation/locamotive/marine) engines run a prelube pump to combat this.

 

15 hours ago, BusyLittleShop said:

 

My 94 RC45 has the same viscosity choices as your 4th Gen but
currently Honda only recommends a 10W30 360 days a year regardless of
outside temperature for all their new bikes including the 8th Gen
VFR800... so technically speaking you could run a 30wt all year like I
do...

 

Most newer vehicles run lighter weight oils. Subaru's FA20 that goes in the BRZ/Toyota GT86 runs 0w20, as well as the 5.3L from GM. The newer Hemi's from Chrysler run 5w20. Tighter tolerances and better oils are dictating lighter oils be used. I would not run straight weight oil in any engine unless it had a lube oil heater to keep it warm constantly, Maine has too drastic of temperature swings. I have gotten up and brought my motorcycle out to get ready for a ride with it in the low 40's, a straight 30wt would be on the thick side for my piece of mind. I run Amsoil motorcycle specific 10W40(I don't pay full price and it gets ordered with a bunch of other oil). If needed I can get it at any NAPA store and a lot of small power sports shops carry it. I do realize that I can run some regular oils but Amsoil has been proven trustworthy through lots of abuse in all different types of engines. 

 

[BusyLittleShop]

http://www.youtube.com/embed/E_iN_IJpSIU

 

Watch the Amsoil video where the rep states that Mobil 1 0w30

is the base oil to all their auto synthetics and Mobil 1 5w30 is the
base to all their diesel synthetics... in their view M1 is the premium
POA... Their motorcycle specific oil is either one or the other or a
combination of both... so spending $12.95 quart for Amsoil is a lot

since the base is $5.40 a quart Mobil 1...

I decided to test whether a motorcycle specific oil produced better
numbers than a Passenger Car Motor Oil (PCMO)... Selected were Asmoil
MCT 10w30 and Mobil 1 AFE 0w30... granted the miles are low but they
are miles not in moderation either more like tracks speeds which
simulates the distant my customers cover in a year of racing or track
days... my customers are consummate riders with bank to afford exotic

homologated racers

 

All in all the Blackstone lab results were about the same...

 

 

[jhenley17]

Nobody seems to keep Rotella T6 10W-30 on the shelf. I can find it in 5W-40 all day long, but I wanted to directly compare shifting to what I get from the Motul that's in it right now.


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[BusyLittleShop]

A 5W40 is a newer oil than a 10W30... 5W pours more freely at lower temps than a 10W...

 

VOA (Virgin Oil Analysis) are below for 5W40 and 10W30 Rotella and Motul 5W30 to show you

what exactly is in the oil you're buying... I can clarify the numbers if you wish...

[jhenley17]

I'm just concerned that the higher viscosity at operating temperature will raise operating temperatures. If it were a 5W-30, I'd have just picked it up. It seems T6 only comes in 5W-40 and, I think, 15W-40, though.


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[BusyLittleShop]

If you have your heart set on a 30 I can personally vouch for Mobil 1 5w30... please note its the basic SN 5W30 its not

the High Mileage nor the Advance Fuel Economy nor Extended Performance 5W30... I posted a VOA for comparison...

 

 

[jhenley17]

I probably never even looked at that as I figured the only Mobile One I could use was 4T. If 5W-40 will work, I'm good with it. The manual seems dumbed down compared to older bikes, though, and doesn't give me the weights I can use in various temperature ranges, just says plainly "10W-30."


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[Forbes]

If you have your heart set on a 30 I can personally vouch for Mobil 1 5w30... please note its the basic SN 5W30 its not
the High Mileage nor the Advance Fuel Economy nor Extended Performance 5W30... I posted a VOA for comparison...
 
 


It's the only oil that goes into my V8, will also go into project bike 'when' it's running....


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[HughJebolzak]

I haven't read this whole thread but I did mention this earlier so listen up...

The 5W30 pictured above is "Energy Conserving".

The round circle on the back states "Resource Conserving" Same thing.

Any oil with this on the label contains friction modifiers which are NOT to be used in wet clutch motorcycle engines.

That's one reason why the manufacturers recommendations start with a 10 weight oil and go up.

This is a universal rule for oils in motorcycles. Unless things have changed in the last year, it still is.

Get one approved for motorcycle engines. Your clutch will thank you.

 

 

[jhenley17]

Didn't really pay attention to the picture, but for everything I consider, except Motul, I make sure it's JASO MA rated.


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[BusyLittleShop]

14 hours ago, HughJebolzak said:

I haven't read this whole thread but I did mention this earlier so listen up...

The 5W30 pictured above is "Energy Conserving".

The round circle on the back states "Resource Conserving" Same thing.

Any oil with this on the label contains friction modifiers which are NOT to be used in wet clutch motorcycle engines.

 

You're welcome to warn against it but Energy Conserving or Resource
Conserving are not additives... its an API test that this "oil may
result is an overall saving of fuel in the vehicle fleet as a
whole"... there is nothing new in the oil to defeat a wet clutch...
what is confusing the issue is the fact that all motorcycle wet
clutches will reach a point in their life and start to slip EC oil or
non EC oil... have you noticed that no one complains about clutch slip
when the bike is new??? its around the 27K to 57K range as normal
containments build up to point you may find the clutch begins to loose
its grip... this is usually discovered by the owner during WFO (Wide
Fooking Open)throttle like during a quick overtake or at a track
day... in error one can blame the EC oil but its really the
contaminants on the clutch plates...

 

So the belief that we should stay away from Energy Conserving oil is
on shaky ground... fact is I've been using Mobil 1 30 Energy Conserving
since 98 in Mr.RC45 with no clutch slipping due to oil being
certified 10% freer flowing than non EC oil... and it sports a tall first

gear good for 90mph that's known to incinerate clutch plates...

 

14 hours ago, HughJebolzak said:

That's one reason why the manufacturers recommendations start with a 10 weight oil and go up.

 

Negative... API ranks the first number 10 and the letter W from the newest to the
oldest on its ability to lube your engine during critical start up

0w

5W

10W

15W

20W

I

Technical speaking the first number (the "10" in 10w30) is only a
relative number which basically indicates how easily it will allow an
engine to "turn over" at low temperatures. It is NOT a viscosity
reference. In other words, a 10w30 is NOT a 10 weight oil in cold
temperatures and a 30 weight oil in warm temperatures...

[BusyLittleShop]

18 hours ago, jhenley17 said:

I probably never even looked at that as I figured the only Mobile One I could use was 4T. If 5W-40 will work, I'm good with it. The manual seems dumbed down compared to older bikes, though, and doesn't give me the weights I can use in various temperature ranges, just says plainly "10W-30."

 

The reason Honda plainly states a 10W30 because thin is in and thick is out when it comes to longevity with modern oils... a 5W40 will work but it will cost you 1 to 2 HP and raised operating temps with 0.0 benefit to longevity...

 

Don't forget your options include 10W30 5W30 and 0W30

 

Quote 540Rat
SECTION 2 – MOTOR OIL VISCOSITY SELECTION

THE BENEFITS OF USING THINNER OIL:

• Thinner oil flows quicker at cold start-up to begin lubricating
critical engine components much more quickly than thicker oil can.
Most engine wear takes place during cold start-up before oil flow can
reach all the components. So, quicker flowing thinner oil will help
reduce start-up engine wear, which is actually reducing wear overall.

• The more free flowing thinner oil at cold start-up, is also much
less likely to cause the oil filter bypass to open up, compared to
thicker oil. Of course if the bypass opened up, that would allow
unfiltered oil to be pumped through the engine. The colder the ambient
temperature, and the more rpm used when the engine is cold, the more
important this becomes.

• Thinner oil also flows more at normal operating temperatures. And
oil FLOW is lubrication, but oil pressure is NOT lubrication. Oil
pressure is only a measurement of resistance to flow. Running thicker
oil just to up the oil pressure is the wrong thing to do, because that
only reduces oil flow/lubrication. Oil pressure in and of itself, is
NOT what we are after.

• The more free flowing thinner oil will also drain back to the oil
pan quicker than thicker oil. So, thinner oil can help maintain a
higher oil level in the oil pan during operation, which keeps the oil
pump pickup from possibly sucking air during braking and cornering.

• The old rule of thumb that we should have at least 10 psi for every
1,000 rpm is perfectly fine. Running thicker oil to achieve more
pressure than that, will simply reduce oil flow for no good reason. It
is best to run the thinnest oil we can, that will still maintain at
least the rule of thumb oil pressure. And one of the benefits of
running a high volume oil pump, is that it will allow us to enjoy all
the benefits of running thinner oil, while still maintaining
sufficient oil pressure. A high volume oil pump/thinner oil combo is
preferred over running a standard volume oil pump/thicker oil combo.
Because oil “flow” is our goal for ideal oiling, NOT simply high oil
pressure.

• Oil flow is what carries heat away from internal engine components.
Those engine components are DIRECTLY oil cooled, but only INdirectly
water cooled. And better flowing thinner oil will keep critical engine
components cooler because it carries heat away faster. If you run
thicker oil than needed, you will drive up engine component temps. For
example: Plain bearings, such as rod and main bearings are lubricated
by oil flow, not by oil pressure. Oil pressure is NOT what keeps these
parts separated. Oil pressure serves only to supply the oil to this
interface. The parts are kept apart by the incompressible hydrodynamic
liquid oil wedge that is formed as the liquid oil is pulled in between
the spinning parts. As long as sufficient oil is supplied, no wear can
occur. In addition to this, the flow of oil through the bearings is
what cools them.

 

[FJ12Ryder]

You can quote that guy all you want, but I still don't buy his schtick. Some of it is common knowledge, and some of it is

his own content. All you have to do is separate the good stuff from the dross.

[Dustin]

BLS, I am genuinely curious what you think the reason is manufacturers specifically state things like this in manuals and documentation:

API SG or higher
except oils
labeled as energy
conserving on the
circular API
service label

Do not use API SH or higher oils
displaying a circular API ‘‘energy
conserving’’ service label on the
container. They may affect lubrication
and clutch performance.

Having not ever used an oil in my bikes that wasn't JASO-MA certified, I don't have any evidence or experience that would counter what Honda warns against.

[JZH]

Obviously, the engineers at Honda Motor Co. are inferior engineers, compared with Mr. (Anonymouse) Rat, and his super-secret testing methodology...

 

Not that I have any evidence or interest against the guy, and he may very well be completely accurate in everything he does and says about motor oil, but his people skills are somewhat deficient.

 

Ciao,

[BusyLittleShop]

On 9/13/2017 at 4:49 PM, Dustin said:

BLS, I am genuinely curious what you think the reason is manufacturers specifically state things like this in manuals and documentation:
Having not ever used an oil in my bikes that wasn't JASO-MA certified, I don't have any evidence or experience that would counter what Honda warns against.

 

 

Genuinely speaking Honda states many warnings in their manuals... key
word is MAY which cuts the odds to 50%... examples of the word MAY
are...

 

Warning
The exhaust contains poisonous carbon monoxide gas that MAY cause loss
of consciousness and MAY lead to death.

 

Warning
Used engine oil MAY cause skin cancer if repeatedly left in contact
with the skin for prolonged periods.

 

Warning
Energy conserving oil MAY effect performance.

 

Warning
Modification of the motorcycle, or removal of original equipment, MAY
render the vehicle unsafe or illegal.

 

I think Honda's lawyers are genuinely concerned for our safety and
that we don't gripe too much about the performance of their
motorcycles given the odds of their stated warnings.

Contrast the MAY warnings with Honda warnings stating the key WILL
which sets the odds at 100%.

 

Warning
Spilling DOT 3 or 4 brake fluid on painted, plastic or rubber parts
WILL damage them.

 

Warning
Never use an air hose or dry brush to clean brake assemblies. Use an
OSHA-approved vacuum cleaner or alternate method approved by OSHA.
Inhaled asbestos fibers WILL cause respiratory disease and cancer.

 

Warning
Failure to service your motorcycle with oil WILL result in no oil
pressure and WILL cause the engine to seize.

 

So we all know for a fact the engine WILL not live without oil pumping
through its veins... some of us also know for a fact EC oil WILL not
defeat a clutch in good working order...

 

[Dustin]

Thanks for the explanation.

[BusyLittleShop]

3 hours ago, Dustin said:

Thanks for the explanation.

 

You're welcome...

[Urbanengineer]

Lots of good info here, and a bit too deep for the average guy.

 

I have been running 5-40 T6 or 15-40 in bikes where 10-40 is the recommended oil. I routinely got blackstone UOA's and Synthetic doesn't seem worth the extra bit for me. I change on a 5000 mile basis with automotive oil filters every other.

 

I recommend everyone choose an oil and get lab results using the blackstone recommended UOA reports until they find an oil that they like.

 

The VFR is my first MC to ask for 10-30 - I'll be using Mobil1.

 

https://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/FilterXRef.html

[Bent]

I really do love oil threads.  They've very suspenseful.   The result is always the same for me.   I just use motorcycle oil in my motorcycles, car oils in my cars, and in my other motorized devices, whatever is recommended by the manufacturer.  Never experienced an oil problem in my life of engine ownership.  Simply amazing....not.