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Synthetic Diesel Oil for Motorcycle?


Ohlias

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Hi there!

 

I've always followed manufacture reccomendatiosn when it comes to oil and usually exceeded them. I recently stumbled across this thread on another site that I frequent in order to find good deals:

 

http://forums.redflagdeals.com/shell-rotella-t6-5w-40-5l-tsc-store-37-99-5-mir-2122470/2/

 

TL:DR

Shell Rotella T6 5W-40 5L jug is on sale. This is a Heavy Duty Diesel Engine Oil that is synthetic and meets the JASO MA certification (Japanese motorcycle oil standard). The poster on that forum claims to have used it for several decades in all types of motorcycle an gasoline powered cars without issue.

 

Anyone here have any experience with this? 

 

Being in Canada, good Motul Synthetic costs me north of $100CDN and this stuff is $40CDN on sale. Also, my brother frequently vacations in Vermont and I can probably get it from Walmart USA for rougly $20-$30CDN per bottle. Would sure bring down the cost of my oil changes...

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I've heard a lot of guys say that T5 works fantastically, used it in everything from their dirt bikes to their track bikes. After reading labels, I'd have no reservations putting T6 in my bike. As you stated, it meets JASO-MA requirements. T5 only meets an older JASO standard (can't remember the number and I am not really sure of what it means anyways).

 

I'm probably going to put T6 in my bike next week if I can find 10W-30 locally, just to compare to the Motul I've been using ($18 or $19/quart, I think).

 

Will it hurt your bike? No. Will you reach a consensus on any oil recommendation? No. You'll probably find even more resistance here because it doesn't say "Honda" or "motorcycle" on the label.

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I've used Rotella T6 in all my bikes including 3 vfr's.  It meets the jaso-ma2 rating and is fine with our wet clutches.  Saying that, if you have any doubts just go with any good motorcycle specific oil. I'm a firm believer that its more important to change the oil and filter on a regular basis than the specific brand name. Many like the rotella dino oil also.  

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1 hour ago, smackdoogle said:

I've used Rotella T6 in all my bikes including 3 vfr's.  It meets the jaso-ma2 rating and is fine with our wet clutches.  Saying that, if you have any doubts just go with any good motorcycle specific oil. I'm a firm believer that its more important to change the oil and filter on a regular basis than the specific brand name. Many like the rotella dino oil also.  

Ditto that. Over 1/4 million miles on one of my VFR's. Use exclusively Shell Rotella on all of them. Change oil every 2-2.5K miles (depending on season/abuse), filter every other time. 

Paul in SoCal 

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Two thousand to twenty-five hundred mile oil changes!? Shoot, change it that frequently and you could probably use Pennzoil. That's just flushing money down the recycling center.

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I have used Rotella T (non-synthetic) oil 15-40 wt  in every bike I have owned since finding out about it on a Honda Hawk GT forum.  They have relabeled their products and now it is called T4 on the bottle.   I change oil between 3-4k miles depending how dark it is.  I always change the filter.   Never had an issue with the clutch or transmission.   My 2014 FZ-09 has had it since first change.  My newly acquired 1997 VFR750F with 7700 miles on it when I bought it 2 months ago now has Rotella T.  My 89 Hawk with now 17k miles has had it for 2 years since I bought it.   My VFR400R had it in it when I sold it last week and the other 12 bikes or so I bought and sold since 2009 had it in them when sold.  

 

Was about 12.00 a gallon at Walmart.  Now maybe  14.00.

 

But the final word is buy what makes you feel good. It's your bike,  just take care of it. 

 

Also,  Don't just change oil.  Every 2 years change the antifreeze and the brake fluid.  You would be amazed at the crap I have seen inside 20-30 year old brakes and radiators. 

 

 

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14 hours ago, BusyLittleShop said:

5w30 Mobil 1 is the oil choice for VFRD...

Pretty sure that's not good for wet clutch motorcycles. 10w40 is ok.

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On 8/29/2017 at 7:32 PM, FJ12Ryder said:

Two thousand to twenty-five hundred mile oil changes!? Shoot, change it that frequently and you could probably use Pennzoil. That's just flushing money down the recycling center.

I'm happy with the results. When I wait any longer it's either too thin or too dirty for my comfort level. As they say, YMMV. 

Paul in SoCal

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On 8/31/2017 at 8:19 AM, HughJebolzak said:

Pretty sure that's not good for wet clutch motorcycles. 10w40 is ok.

 

Negative... there is nothing in the 5W30 to defeat a wet clutch in good working order...

 

The holy trinity of science is 1)Reason 2)Observation 3)Experience...
employing those tools we observe that the primary cause clutch slip
are high mileage... mileage is the constant among all of the clutches
that begin to slip... oil is not a constant... you can't established a
constant when one owner swears 30 weight caused clutch slip whereas
equally other owners swear 30 weight don't... so experience shows us under
close visual scrutiny that all clutches begin to slip due to normal
glazing and contaminates built up over mileage... mileage is the
constant missing from the trouble shooting debate... no one

complains about clutch slip on a new bike...

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On 8/29/2017 at 0:30 PM, Ohlias said:

Anyone here have any experience with this? 

 

 

I don't recommend it to my customers because Shell Rotella T6 was ranked 121 out of 150 oils tested for wear protection whereas Mobil 1 5W30 was ranked 10...

Source https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/  ( after you read this source you'll know something about oil)

 

10. 5W30 Mobil 1, API SN synthetic = 105,875 psi
zinc = 801 ppm
phosphorus = 842 ppm
moly = 112 ppm
calcium = 799 ppm
TBN = 7.5

 

121. 5W40 SHELL ROTELLA T6 Diesel Oil, synthetic, API CJ-4, CI-4 Plus,
CI-4, CH-4, SM, SL = 67,804 psi
zinc = TBD
phos = TBD
moly = TBD

 

The old Rotella which was the "new" Rotella ranked higher at 104

104. 15W40 “NEW” SHELL ROTELLA T Diesel Oil conventional, API CJ-4,
CI-4 Plus, CH-4, CF-4,CF/SM = 72,022 psi
zinc = 1454 ppm
phos = 1062 ppm
moly = 0 ppm

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I wonder if the guy has ever heard of the word "hubris". He certainly has a very high opinion of himself. Whether it's deserved is

debatable.

 

My gawd, I simply could not get too far into it, the guy is so full of himself. It's amazing that he isn't some kind of god with the knowledge

he has. People should be prostrating themselves before him. Either that or he's just really full of himself. :beer:

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2 hours ago, FJ12Ryder said:

I wonder if the guy has ever heard of the word "hubris". He certainly has a very high opinion of himself. Whether it's deserved is

debatable.

 

My gawd, I simply could not get too far into it, the guy is so full of himself. It's amazing that he isn't some kind of god with the knowledge

he has. People should be prostrating themselves before him. Either that or he's just really full of himself. :beer:

 

He's mixing oils used for widely different applications. The Amsoil Dominator oil is used in oil injected 2 stroke engines such as snowmobiles. Also the constant use of additional additives to different oils throws red flags. I wouldn't put much faith in that. Oh, I am an engineer as well, with a degree and am licensed to work on the largest ships in the world, i.e fix and improve equipment like that guy designed.

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One of the first things I read that left me thinking he thinks too highly of himself was the example of his friend and engine rebuild. He

was very quick and emphatic about how the guy is meticulous about engine rebuilds, ran his break-in oil and then had issues with the

engine. He mentioned that the guy had never had any problems with his other builds, has done lots of engine rebuilds, and probably

used the same break-in oil all those other times and never had any problem. But lo and behold he asks this guy and of course this

guy has all the answers. But it's possible if the builder has done this lots of times using the same oil with no issues, maybe this time

he just got some bad parts, or simply made a mistake.

 

But noooooo, it was the advice given by the blogster that saved the day. Pshaw, I could write any kind of blog and make myself look good

if I use enough "I's" and "me's" and "my's". And it's hardly an unbiased report since he does all the tests using his parameters, and then

posts his results. Hardly a recipe for a balanced report.

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Sorry FJ12Ryder and coupedupsubie but he already made your (and my and anyone else's) criticisms irrelevant...

 

"My advice is, ignore any critics of my Blog, because they have always been wrong, and cannot be trusted."  

 

Just wow...

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You must be a stronger man than I am, because I couldn't read far enough to get to that one. :beer:

 

The guy does sound like a bit of a douche, okay, a really big douche.

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540Rat is like I found a brother on the subject of oil...

 

What I like about 540Rat's oil test... even though all 156 oils
are subject to the same test not all are equal... some show better
wear protection than others... it's like testing all the bikes on the
same Dyno

 

I know some claim 540 Rat's work is useless and not valid but no one
with an opposing stand has spent their time and energy developing a
more useful independent and unbiased Engineering test of 150+ motor oils to
establish a “Wear Protection Ranking List” which EXACTLY matches real
world Track experience, real world flat tappet break-in experience,
and real world High Performance Street experience...

 

540 Rat view count increases by about 5,000 views per month and the
majority of the opinions are supportive... there are a growing number
of people worldwide who recognize the value and understand the
importance and make use of 540 Rat motor oil test data... FACTS
included there that cannot be found anywhere else... have a look and
judge for yourself... https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/

 

540 Rat
Section 1 – Motor Oil “Wear Protection” Ranking List
Section 2 – Motor Oil Viscosity Selection
Section 3 – Motor Oil Thermal Breakdown Test Data
Section 4 – Motor Oil component quantity Lab Test results
Section 5 – Reserved for future Motor Oil Test Data
Section 6 – Detailed Motor Oil and Mechanical Tech Articles NOTE: Some
of the motor oil Articles were written before the most recently tested
motor oils were added to the Wear Protection Ranking List in Section

 

1. The articles included are:

1. I-Beam vs H-Beam – which Connecting Rod is Best?
2. Rod Bolt Strength – what do we Really need?
3. Solid Roller Lifters – Bushings vs Needles, which is Best?
4. Camshaft Overlap vs LSA
5. Leak Down Tester
6. Can you really suck the Oil Pan dry?
7. Dynamic Compression Ratio (DCR) vs Static Compression Ratio (SCR)
8. 0W40 vs 5W30 vs 0W30
9. Aftermarket Zinc Additives – Do they Work?
10. Break-In Oils – Do we Really need them?
11. Can you always count on high zinc motor oil?
12. Diesel Oil – Is it the right choice for High Performance gasoline engines?
13. Do comparable zinc levels provide comparable wear protection?
14. Does Prolong Engine Treatment actually work?
15. Test Data on the newest Pennzoils made from Natural Gas
16. High Temp Motor Oil Wear Testing – Myth vs Reality

 

 

 

 

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I agree there is some very good info in the blog and no doubt that 540 Rat will forget more about oil than I will ever know (or want to). I like that the oil change intervals for autos and motos and reasoning for the intervals in Section 25 line up nicely with my own.

 

That being said, Section 8. 0W40 vs 5W30 vs 0W30 states:

As you can see from these actual Engineering test values, all the 5W30 oils provide better wear protection than any of the 0W oils. But even so, any of these oils would be acceptable for normal daily driver use. However, for highly loaded High Performance applications where the best possible wear protection is desired, the obvious choice would be 5W30 Pennzoil Ultra, API SM or 5W30 Mobil 1, API SN, which are the only oils in this test that provide INCREDIBLE wear protection.

 

But in the "WEAR PROTECTION RANKING LIST" (measured as psi) earlier in the article it is stated:

3. 0W40 Mobil 1 “FS” European Car Formula, ACEA A3/B3, A3/B4, API SN, synthetic = 127,221 psi
This new oil replaces the older version called, 0W40 Mobil 1, European Formula, API SN, synthetic. See below for the older version’s ranking position.
zinc = TBD
phos = TBD
moly = TBD
This new “FS” version was tested in Summer 2016. This oil produced the highest psi value ever seen in my testing, from any motor oil just as it comes right out of the bottle, with no aftermarket additives. Very impressive.
However, a 40wt hot viscosity rated motor oil is too thick to be ideal for most engines. It is best to select the thinnest motor oil viscosity that will still provide acceptable “hot” oil pressure. And you do NOT need to select the “highest rated” motor oil, just as it comes right out of the bottle, from this Wear Protection Ranking List. There are many highly ranked oils here, that will provide your engine with excellent wear protection. So, you have many oils to choose from.
I also went on to test this oil at the much higher temperature of 275*F. At that elevated temperature, any hotter and thinner oil is expected to experience a drop in Wear Protection Capability. This oil did have a 16% drop in capability. But, even at that elevated temperature, it produced an impressive 106,876 psi, which still kept this much hotter and thinner oil in the INCREDIBLE Wear Protection Category.
I also tested this oil to find out its onset of thermal breakdown, which was 280F.

 

The above Mobil 1 0W40 numbers are much better numbers than

9. 5W30 Mobil 1, Advanced Full Synthetic, API SN, GM dexos 1 approved = 117,799 psi
zinc = TBD
phos = TBD
moly = TBD
This was the latest current version of this oil when tested at the end of 2015. This oil is used by a number of Auto Makers worldwide as factory fill oil in their High Performance cars. The psi value of this oil, which came from testing it at the normal operating test temperature of 230*F, put it in the INCREDIBLE Wear Protection Category.
However, I went on to also test this oil at the much higher temperature of 275*F. At that elevated temperature, any hotter and thinner oil is expected to experience a drop in Wear Protection Capability. And this oil did have a disappointing 36% drop in capability. At that reduced value down to 75,861 psi, this much hotter and thinner oil dropped down to the GOOD Wear Protection Category. You can avoid such a drop in capability by keeping the oil at a more reasonable cooler temperature.

 

It appears that Section 8. 0W40 vs 5W30 vs 0W30 is using the old Mobil 1 0W40 formulation and did not take into account the current Mobil 1 0W40 formulation.

 

So the question is, based on the test results in this blog, if Honda recommends a 40wt oil, why wouldn't I want to use the Mobil 1 0W40 as opposed to the Mobil 1 5W30?  Or are the higher phosporous and zinc levels in the 0W40 vs 5W30 (1000 & 1100 vs 800 & 900 per Mobil 1) cause for concern?

 

Full disclosure - Love Mobil 1 and currently using Mobil 1 10W40 High Mileage with 2500 mile change intervals

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3 hours ago, LangoPTC said:

So the question is, based on the test results in this blog, if Honda recommends a 40wt oil, why wouldn't I want to use the Mobil 1 0W40 as opposed to the Mobil 1 5W30?  Or are the higher phosporous and zinc levels in the 0W40 vs 5W30 (1000 & 1100 vs 800 & 900 per Mobil 1) cause for concern?

 

 

 

Viscosity

If there is one thing a motorcycle owner has control over its the
viscosity of their oil... whether you choose an 0w40 or 5w30 both
will meet and exceed your mileage expectations so the choice is

yours but choosing a 30 over a 40 is smarter because it will:

 

1)increase 1 to 2 HP at the rear wheel
2)quicken the throttle response coming out of the corners...
3)decrease over all operating temps...
4)increase the oil flow at the critical bearings..

 

Oil drag is real and cost you HP...
viscosity_test.gif

 

Phosphorus and Zinc

Mobil 1 0w40 phosphors and zinc levels are actually marginally higher
than the Mobil 1 5w30... but according to 4 independent Industry
sources that nothing to brag about because more does NOT provide more
wear protection, it only provides LONGER wear protection... that's a
moot point because the majority don't even go the recommended 8K oil
change interval...

 

My confident in the 5W30 Ph and Zinc levels are backed-up by a total
of FOUR other independent Industry sources. They are as follows:

 

1. Well known and respected Engineer and Tech Author David Vizard,
whose own test data, largely based on real world engine dyno testing,
has concluded that more zinc in motor oil can be damaging, more zinc
does NOT provide todays best wear protection, and that using zinc as
the primary anti-wear component, is outdated technology.

2. The GM Oil Report titled, Oil Myths from GM Techlink, concluded
that high levels of zinc are damaging and that more zinc does NOT
provide more wear protection.

3. A motor oil research article written by Ed Hackett titled, More
than you ever wanted to know about Motor Oil, concluded that more
zinc does NOT provide more wear protection, it only provides longer
wear protection.

4. This from the Brad Penn Oil Company: There is such a thing as too
much ZDDP. ZDDP is surface aggressive, and too much can be a
detriment. ZDDP fights for the surface, blocking other additive
performance. Acids generated due to excessive ZDDP contact will
tie-up detergents thus encouraging corrosive wear. ZDDP
effectiveness plateaus, more does NOT translate into more protection.
Only so much is utilized. We dont need to saturate our oil with ZDDP.

 

 

 

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Lango, there is NO cause for concern.

 

Understand, not a single oil of the Honda specified viscosity on this list is going to cause your engine to die prematurely. Pretty much any synthetic or blend is going to become contaminated long before it starts to have anything close to viscosity breakdown in normal use, and regular changes with new filters will be all you need.

 

Even this arrogant fucking asshat's own estimates state that 105000PSI in his (proprietary, unshared, unreviewed) test methodology is "incredible" and 90000 is "outstanding"  for whatever those terms mean. The top 85 oils tested are all 90K or above for wear. The top 185 he still rates as "good" here. The examples you post are literally DOUBLE what he considers the border from "Good" to "not desireable".  You literally can't go wrong.

 

Mobile one has always done very well on tests like thermal breakdown, retention of viscosity over time, and sheer strength. Not this dude's tests (where it also performs well) but other actual lab's tests that look for those sorts of things as well. So, the difference between being ranked #1 in this list and #50 in this list is absolutely negligible and I seriously doubt there's a mobile 1 product you can't trust.

 

Use the oil that works, change it, and be happy. I've used Mobile 1 of various ilks in my bikes. Don't like it, personally, as it will make my shifting notchy, but I guarantee not the slightest bit of extra wear has happened from using it and if I had some reason to do a change without my preferred oil I'd grab damned near any oil that said "40" (0W40, 5W40, 10W40 whatever) from mobile one and know my bike would be in good hands.  I choose 40 weight because my bike shifts less nicely at 30 weight and Honda says to use 10W40.

 

I also use Mobile 1 high mileage in my truck, by the way. 160,000 miles, 2001 like my  bike,  and going very strong.

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Thanks for the replies!  It is always interesting to understand the reasoning behind people's choices and even better when I can learn something in the process.  Great discussion.  Great forum.  

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I absolutely agree about the points made by BLS about viscosity.

 

Many, many years ago I bought a new 1980 Suzuki GS100G. Since it was an air cooled rollerbearing crank motor,

I ran Castrol GTX 20W-50 oil. I also installed a temp gauge in one of the oil galleys. For some reason which escapes

me after all these years, I switched from 20W-50 to a 10W-40 and noticed that the temperature dropped almost 20°,

with no other changes to the motor. I noticed no ill affects and continued to use that oil for the duration of my ownership

of the bike.

 

Very interesting to read about the opinions and test results of zinc in the oil.

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