Welcome to VFRDiscussion

Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to contribute to this site by submitting your own content or replying to existing content. You'll be able to customize your profile, receive reputation points as a reward for submitting content, while also communicating with other members via your own private inbox, plus much more! This message will be removed once you have signed in.

GatorGreg

Am I the only one who didn't know...

79 posts in this topic
6 hours ago, Skids said:

I wonder why Honda invested time & money (and therefore reduced the profit on their sales) on this little feature if it "doesn't work".

 

Do we have any members who know someone in a position in Honda somewhere in the world who could answer the question of what this is for/why?

 

i would ask the same question about Honda's "traction control" that I've heard nothing positive about.  The outcome to the consumer seems to be an attempt by Honda to add a feature that ultimately undercuts their ability to innovate and execute successfully that the consumer paid money for.  What a botched poorly thought out and executed feature that wasn't really needed.  Not everyone, including riders, likes TC on MotoGP bikes either.  But, we all know there will be riderless MotoGP bikes in the near future.......   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Bent said:

 

i would ask the same question about Honda's "traction control" that I've heard nothing positive about.

 

There's a thread/poll here on the subject of Traction Control (see link below) where it currently has 5 votes that say the TC works fine and only 1 vote that says it doesn't.  So there are at least a few folks here who have positive things to say about it.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, GatorGreg said:

Maybe Honda was afraid they'd be criticized or made fun of for putting what are essentially electronic training wheels on their bikes? :tongue:

 

You mean, like ABS?  Or that awful excuse for Traction Control on Honda's supposed "technology showcase" bike??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Rectaltronics said:

 

You mean, like ABS?  Or that awful excuse for Traction Control on Honda's supposed "technology showcase" bike??

 

It's the year 2017. Every single motorcycle sold should have ABS, and the US is pathetically behind for not requiring it.

 

I also don't understand when people complain about TC. It's a good feature, implemented decently. My ST1100 had it and it saved my butt at least once on a wet surface. You can turn it off if you want to be 'one with the machine' or whatever. Most riders are not as good or as fast as the electronics, no matter how much that hurts their ego to admit.

 

The VFR has not been the technology showcase for over a decade. It's been retired to a 'sophisticated sport bike with light touring capabilities,' which is fine with me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, thtanner said:

It's the year 2017. Every single motorcycle sold should have ABS, and the US is pathetically behind for not requiring it.

 

I also don't understand when people complain about TC. It's a good feature, implemented decently. My ST1100 had it and it saved my butt at least once on a wet surface. You can turn it off if you want to be 'one with the machine' or whatever. Most riders are not as good or as fast as the electronics, no matter how much that hurts their ego to admit.

 

The VFR has not been the technology showcase for over a decade. It's been retired to a 'sophisticated sport bike with light touring capabilities,' which is fine with me.

 

I don't make this shit up.  From Honda's web site... 

 

image.thumb.png.5bbb991573f09bfead2498431e80106a.png

 

You're welcome to your opinions about ABS and TC.

 

As much as I love my ABS, making it mandatory is too nanny-state for me.  Especially if it can't be shut off voluntarily.  It can be a major-league suck-fest on dirt and gravel and believe it or not, the entire globe is not paved.

 

The TC could be a good feature but not how it's implemented on this bike.  Maybe it's puppy dogs and rainbows for you there in OC but when trying to dart through NYC's urban traffic with its third-world pavement conditions, it's an enormous liability that rears its ugly head constantly.  I nearly always turn it off before I even hit the starter button now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anything Honda USA says can be dismissed, realistically. They are so disconnected from the mothership that it's a surprise they're even staying afloat. That's simply marketing flub written by a 20 something who has never touched a motorbike.

 

ABS should be mandatory in the United States. It's been proven time and time again to be more effective than even the best riders. Pro riders on test tracks are stopping faster with ABS except for very specific conditions. Regular riders (i.e. you) are stopping faster with ABS basically *every* time. Lives would be saved. The mandate works fine in EU, where they have arguably rougher roads on average than we do. For the tiny % of riders that feel the way you do, just modify the bike to disable it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, thtanner said:

Anything Honda USA says can be dismissed, realistically. They are so disconnected from the mothership that it's a surprise they're even staying afloat. That's simply marketing flub written by a 20 something who has never touched a motorbike.

 

ABS should be mandatory in the United States. It's been proven time and time again to be more effective than even the best riders. Pro riders on test tracks are stopping faster with ABS except for very specific conditions. Regular riders (i.e. you) are stopping faster with ABS basically *every* time. Lives would be saved. The mandate works fine in EU, where they have arguably rougher roads on average than we do. For the tiny % of riders that feel the way you do, just modify the bike to disable it.

 

Say whatever you want, the technology showcase drivel is Honda's marketing, not my claims.

 

If you believe I am arguing the value of ABS you ought to re-read my post.  There are many things that would save lives but I'm hesitant to have Big Brother ramming it all forcefully up my ass.

 

Meanwhile, kindly share with me and us this modification or workaround you have discovered to turn off the 8th Gen's ABS when road conditions require.  Thanks!

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, getting back on topic...

I just went for a little ride, and when I got back I decided to do a little testing of the rpm rise in first gear.  As it turns out, it might not be such a useless feature after all.  As we all know by now, at idle (1200 rpm) in first gear, when you let the clutch out a little the rpm goes up about 250 rpm, which isn't enough to really help you idle off the line.  And if you hold it at 3000 rpm or more with the throttle, and let the clutch out a little, it doesn't rise at all.  But....if you can manage to barely open the throttle enough to get it somewhere between 1500 to 2000 rpm, it will jump at least 500 rpm with the clutch, which was a much more noticeable increase on the tach.  So basically, if you happen to accidentally give it too little gas taking off, it might actually add just enough rpm to keep it from stalling.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Rectaltronics said:

 

You mean, like ABS?  Or that awful excuse for Traction Control on Honda's supposed "technology showcase" bike??

 

No, I was only referring to the "innovative low rpm assist system" (as Suzuki calls it) which was the subject of this thread and was apparently designed to help noobs launch their bike - hence my reference to training wheels :tongue:

 

ABS and TC on the other hand are technologies that can help expert riders (whether they admit it or not) as well as noobs.

 

I did consider the 8th gen a "technology showcase" when it came out in 2014 (and to a lesser extent even today). What other bikes had LED headlights, ABS, and Traction Control in 2014?   And if there were any, what did they cost in comparison to the 8th gen's original MSRP of $13,499 in 2014?  I bet none of them also had the "innovative" low rpm assist system back then :tongue:

 

I think your characterization of the 8th gen's Traction Control as "awful" is unfair.  Currently, 5 folks voted in the thread/poll (linked below) that it works just fine (including me) and only 1 person has voted that it doesn't.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, DriverDave said:

Ok, getting back on topic...

I just went for a little ride, and when I got back I decided to do a little testing of the rpm rise in first gear.  As it turns out, it might not be such a useless feature after all.  As we all know by now, at idle (1200 rpm) in first gear, when you let the clutch out a little the rpm goes up about 250 rpm, which isn't enough to really help you idle off the line.  And if you hold it at 3000 rpm or more with the throttle, and let the clutch out a little, it doesn't rise at all.  But....if you can manage to barely open the throttle enough to get it somewhere between 1500 to 2000 rpm, it will jump at least 500 rpm with the clutch, which was a much more noticeable increase on the tach.  So basically, if you happen to accidentally give it too little gas taking off, it might actually add just enough rpm to keep it from stalling.

 

Very interesting info Dave!  I was just wondering what would have happened in my experiment if I had already throttled the RPMs up to say a steady 2,000 RPM before letting out the clutch - would it still go up by 250 or would the effect go away if already above idle?   You're saying based on your experiment that it still increases the RPM and perhaps by as much as 500, not just 250?  The 8th gen really is a technology showcase!  :tongue:  I was also wondering what would have happened if I had the bike in 2nd gear before letting out the clutch - I assume they designed it to only work in 1st gear?   This gives me a good excuse to go out for a ride now and do some more experiments - I'll report my findings later tonight LOL.

 

EDIT:  Okay I THINK I was able to duplicate Dave's result of roughly a 500 RPM increase at 2,000 and no increase at 3,000.  It was difficult to keep the throttle steady when releasing the clutch because when the wheel starts spinning on the center stand it still jostles you a bit.  When I pulled the clutch back in it was never at exactly 2,000 rpm again which tells me I wasn't keeping the throttle perfectly steady throughout the experiment.  Also, it DOES work in 2nd gear too - rpm would increase by about 250 at idle when releasing the clutch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, GatorGreg said:

What other bikes had LED headlights, ABS, and Traction Control in 2014? 

 

 

Actually there were plenty of bikes from many brands that had ABS and TC in 2014...most BMW, most KTM, some Aprillia, the Gold Wing...just to name a few.  You would have to go back to before 2010 to find "hardly any" with those things.

As for the VFR's TC, while I do think it can save some crashes, and I always leave mine on, it can be dangerous when it cuts power when you're hard on the gas over bumps...like shooting a gap on a left turn.  It seems like it takes forever for the power to come back.  But that's really the only time it's bad.  Hitting any other unexpected 'slippery' situation on the gas would probably cause a wipeout if you didn't have TC.  That's why I don't hate it, and keep mine on.

 

FYI, as I've mentioned in the past, my only riding is hard and fast in the canyons and I would rather have ABS and TC than not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, DriverDave said:

 

Actually there were plenty of bikes from many brands that had ABS and TC in 2014...most BMW, most KTM, some Aprillia, the Gold Wing...just to name a few.  You would have to go back to before 2010 to find "hardly any" with those things.

 

But that wasn't my question - my question was how many had ABS, TC, and LED headlights?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well in that case, only the VFR had LEDs in 2014...to the best of my knowledge.  Even today, there aren't many with full LED headlights.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, DriverDave said:

Well in that case, only the VFR had LEDs in 2014...to the best of my knowledge.  Even today, there aren't many with full LED headlights.

 

Exactly my point - the 8th gen really was a "technology showcase" for 2014.  I think maybe the Panigale 1199/1299 had all three (ABS, TC, LED) in 2014?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Rectaltronics said:

 

Say whatever you want, the technology showcase drivel is Honda's marketing, not my claims.

 

If you believe I am arguing the value of ABS you ought to re-read my post.  There are many things that would save lives but I'm hesitant to have Big Brother ramming it all forcefully up my ass.

 

Meanwhile, kindly share with me and us this modification or workaround you have discovered to turn off the 8th Gen's ABS when road conditions require.  Thanks!

 

 

 

I never mentioned a push button on off. 

 

Peoples fear of big brother ramming unmentionables in dark places becomes a hindrance to society as a whole at times. In this case, ABS would be a welcome addition to most every motorcycle on the road, regardless of who told them to put it there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, thtanner said:

 

I never mentioned a push button on off. 

 

Peoples fear of big brother ramming unmentionables in dark places becomes a hindrance to society as a whole a times.

 

You made it sound so easy.  :sad:

 

A line has to be drawn at times.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

According to Motorcycle Consumer News, which publishes certain top 10 statistics for mc's, fifth gen VFRs are tied for sixth place of all procuction mc's in braking from 60mph: 108.something feet.

I'd like to see the same test performed by a similarly skilled rider on a ABS-equiped VFR800. From what I've observed of other ABS-equiped mc's, I'd say they do not stop as fast. This is of course on dry pavement and, probably, under ideal circumstances. In adverse conditions, I'd expect ABS to be a big improvement.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is not having ABS on our bikes really hindering society? I do need the government telling me how big of a soda I can have, though.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, GatorGreg said:

 

Very interesting info Dave!  I was just wondering what would have happened in my experiment if I had already throttled the RPMs up to say a steady 2,000 RPM before letting out the clutch - would it still go up by 250 or would the effect go away if already above idle?   You're saying based on your experiment that it still increases the RPM and perhaps by as much as 500, not just 250?  The 8th gen really is a technology showcase!  :tongue:  I was also wondering what would have happened if I had the bike in 2nd gear before letting out the clutch - I assume they designed it to only work in 1st gear?   This gives me a good excuse to go out for a ride now and do some more experiments - I'll report my findings later tonight LOL.

RPM increases in all gears, put it in any gear and start to let out the clutch...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Re: traction control and abs.  Making them mandatory reminds me of trying to legislate morality.  That's ALWAYS been a futile effort by people believing they're on the moral high ground that they never ever have a valid basis to be on.  Why don't we just just put devices on speed limit signs and vehicles that would automatically force all vehicles to not exceed the posted speed limits when a speeding vehicle is detected?  That technology exists.  People would howl.  BTW, one objection out of a five person poll is statistically invalid for concluding anything other than five people like traction control.

 

Perhaps the best ground to take is respect for other people's opinions.  Or, let's just regulate everything.  We need more laws.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You'd riot if you knew I think helmets should be mandatory as well. Seat belts are OK but helmets are crossing the line? Pfft.

 

I said nothing about mandating TC. ABS, on the other hand, most definitely should be required. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Simple, just include a switch to turn it on or off according to each individual's criteria. Just like you can with the traction control.

Funny thing is if I'm not mistaken, all cars now come with ABS whether you like it or not and I don't see people complaining about big brother issues.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And the vast majority of those driving cars could care less about their skills, feel, or involvement. Most people don't even know what engine they have. Even a lot of enthusiasts are happy to see manual transmissions disappear because DCTs and automatics can turn faster lap times, never mind that 99% of them never see a track. Not that there aren't clueless riders, but in the US, it's a very different group.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Bent said:

Re: traction control and abs.  Making them mandatory reminds me of trying to legislate morality.  That's ALWAYS been a futile effort by people believing they're on the moral high ground that they never ever have a valid basis to be on.  Why don't we just just put devices on speed limit signs and vehicles that would automatically force all vehicles to not exceed the posted speed limits when a speeding vehicle is detected?  That technology exists.  People would howl.  BTW, one objection out of a five person poll is statistically invalid for concluding anything other than five people like traction control.

 

Perhaps the best ground to take is respect for other people's opinions.  Or, let's just regulate everything.  We need more laws.   

LOL - I hear where you're coming from and respect your point of view.  And this may be why Honda gave us the choice in the USA of having ABS and TC on the 8th gen, they know that a significant portion of our population don't like having computers taking control of things for us or government regulators forcing safety equipment on us.  But if you are anti-regulation, can we assume that your car is a pre 2012 model made before Electronic Stability Control became mandatory?  Actually, you would probably want to get a car made before roughly 1995 when airbags became mandatory, right?  Or better yet, you should insist on only buying cars made before 1968 when seat belts became mandatory.  Or maybe a car made in the 1930's or whenever it was they started mandating the use of safety glass in windshields?

 

That said, I'm actually a little annoyed that Honda put this low rpm assist system on my bike without my knowledge.  Even though it's actually kind of a nice feature and it wouldn't have prevented me from buying it - I was kind of creeped out when I found out that after almost a year of riding my bike a computer has been monkeying around with my throttle for all this time :tongue:   What else is it doing that I'm not aware of?  I think Honda should have mentioned this feature in their promotional materials like Suzuki does.

 

As for the Traction Control poll I referenced above, I was by no means claiming that it was scientific.  I only referenced it because I felt someone reading Rectal's assertion that it was "awful" should know that not everyone here shares that view.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now