Member Contributer Skids Posted July 23, 2017 Member Contributer Share Posted July 23, 2017 Maybe he'd already lost a LOT of hp by the time he changed it. What BLS is saying is that we should be careful what we use as the indicator of when a chain has reached its end of life. I've always used run out of adjustment but I can see now that is incorrect. Trouble is, my Honda-fitted wear sticker is currently lying on the floor of my garage so how do I now tell when my chain needs replacing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StubyDoo Posted July 23, 2017 Share Posted July 23, 2017 I've checked my chain this weekend and it's slack on the rear sprocket with 13500 miles on the clock. It needed a fair bit of adjustment too and it wasn't long ago since I last adjusted it. Time for a new one I think. I use Wruth dry chain lube and ride all year round in the awful British weather! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhenley17 Posted July 23, 2017 Share Posted July 23, 2017 Got 15k on it, well past the green zone on the sticker. I don't trust it 100% because I'm doubting it was placed within any tight specifications, but I'm still going with it. I've been putting it off for several thousand miles, though, with lots of WOT through first and second, a handful of runs to 130-140, and lots of rain with no problems yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer BusyLittleShop Posted July 23, 2017 Member Contributer Share Posted July 23, 2017 On 7/23/2017 at 11:03 AM, FJ12Ryder said: Why does a ScottOiler allow chains to reach such high mileage? Eggs on Leggs has one and several guys on the old FJ list got huge mileage using them. Seems like if they didn't do at least a little oiling of the pins the mileage wouldn't be much different than just spray chain lube. Mr.Scott's auto oiler reliably coats the chain like an leaky counter shaft seal but technically speaking no amount of external oil will reach the critical pin and roller junction... not even a little oiling... because an X ring held in tension is an effective seal just like your fork seals are... the only worth one can expect is the fact that if you coat the chain in enough oil the running temp is lower where the factory installed grease has a chance to live longer... Mr.Scott's auto oiler was designed for non standard chains back in the 60s for London Motorcycle Couriers... this is before "O" or "X" ring chains were invented... so if you ran a non X ring chain then I would agree Mr. Scott's oiler is a reliable substitute for that prescribed manual lubrication because oil would have a chance to migrate to the critical pin and roller junction... Take cam chains... we expect our cam chains to last the life of the engine because the critical pin and roller junction enjoys a continuous oil supply... death for a cam chain is to install X rings which would effectively seal off the path of any external oil reaching the critical pin and roller junction... an X ring cam chain would not last the life of the engine and would required replacement about as often as our drive chains even though it labors in a hail storm of fresh hot oil... FACT If you adjust your chain at all it is due to the factory installed grease is beginning to fail and metal to metal wear behind the X ring at the critical pin and roller junction is happening and no amount of external oil will reverse this wear... After the 3rd adjustment the amount of metal to metal wear is plain chain abuse... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Egg on Leggs Posted July 23, 2017 Member Contributer Share Posted July 23, 2017 Whilst I can see the point about the inner pin, the inner and outer roller are not protected by an O ring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer fink Posted July 23, 2017 Member Contributer Share Posted July 23, 2017 from the scottoiler website. https://www.scottoiler.com/uk/how-it-works/chainlubrication101.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee 2002 Posted July 23, 2017 Share Posted July 23, 2017 I don't usually find any reason to disagree with BLS, but I think he missed the most important positive point of the Scottoiler. I think the great advantage of a Scottoiler is that it is easy to use. This leads to frequent oiling. This regular, constant wash of oil over the chain will flush off grit and debris leading to a cleaner chain from a mechanical point of view (but not an aesthetic point of view). This is grit that could otherwise abrade or cut a sealing ring. I don't use a Scottoiler so I don't have a vested interest. I'm the guy that points the car wash wand at the chain while it circulates in first gear at idle and puts on whatever product has recently captured my interest or is cheaply available. Even with my meticulous chain maintenance regimen, I still get ~20,000 miles out of a chain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer FJ12Ryder Posted July 23, 2017 Member Contributer Share Posted July 23, 2017 1 hour ago, BusyLittleShop said: Mr.Scott's auto oiler reliably coats the chain like an leaky counter shaft seal but technically speaking no amount of external oil will reach the critical pin and roller junction... not even a little oiling... because an X ring held in tension is an effective seal just like your fork seals are... the only worth one can expect is the fact that if you coat the chain in enough oil the running temp is lower where the factory installed grease has a chance to live longer... Mr.Scott's auto oiler was designed for non standard chains back in the 60s for London Motorcycle Couriers... this is before "O" or "X" ring chains were invented... so if you ran a non X ring chain then I would agree Mr. Scott's oiler is a reliable substitute for that prescribed manual lubrication because oil would have a chance to migrate to the critical pin and roller junction... Take cam chains we know cam chains don't wear out at all like drive chains because the cam chain's critical pin and roller junction have continuous oil supply... now if we install an X ring chain in place of the non X ring cam chain it would begin wearing at the critical pin and roller junction about as often as the drive chain even though it operates in a hail storm of fresh hot oil because no oil will migrate behind the X ring and extend the life of the critical pin and roller junction... wear will happen and the cam chain length will grow... FACT If you adjust your chain at all it is due to the factory installed grease is beginning to fail and metal to metal wear behind the X ring at the critical pin and roller junction is happening and no amount of external oil will reverse this wear... After the 3rd adjustment the amount of metal to metal wear is plain chain abuse... That's pretty much a non answer. Why do the X-ring, O-ring chains last so long with a ScottOiler? I agree that the ScottOiler came about before O-ring chains, but they last longer with a ScottOiler. If they didn't you'd run out of adjustment in 58,000 miles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer BusyLittleShop Posted July 24, 2017 Member Contributer Share Posted July 24, 2017 5 hours ago, FJ12Ryder said: Why do the X-ring, O-ring chains last so long with a ScottOiler? The running oil leak lowers the operating temp where the factory installed grease has a chance to live longer before the first adjustment... but the fact remains adjustment is taking up the slack cause by metal to metal wear at the critical pin and roller junction because the factory installed grease is beginning to fail... you can submerge the chain into a sea of oil and not one molecule will migrate pass the effective X ring seals to reverse this metal to metal wear... You can say the "chain last longer" but you can not say there was no metal to metal wear going on at the critical pin and roller junction during the first adjustment... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer fink Posted July 24, 2017 Member Contributer Share Posted July 24, 2017 Bit like the difference between running fully synth and semi synth . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katie Posted July 24, 2017 Share Posted July 24, 2017 Was advised to stay away from chain wax in the summer (it collects grit) and dry lube in the winter (it washes off too easily). Decided this required too much in the way of thinking, especially given the UK seasonal weather patterns (ie - none) so just went for the ordinary stuff - mucky but it does what I want it to. So I go for the 'fling and forget' method. Lube the chain once a week (around every 700 miles) and clean the crap off the wheels when it gets to the 'hard to turn right' stage of build up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer FJ12Ryder Posted July 24, 2017 Member Contributer Share Posted July 24, 2017 9 hours ago, BusyLittleShop said: The running oil leak lowers the operating temp where the factory installed grease has a chance to live longer before the first adjustment... but the fact remains adjustment is taking up the slack cause by metal to metal wear at the critical pin and roller junction because the factory installed grease is beginning to fail... you can submerge the chain into a sea of oil and not one molecule will migrate pass the effective X ring seals to reverse this metal to metal wear... You can say the "chain last longer" but you can not say there was no metal to metal wear going on at the critical pin and roller junction during the first adjustment... An O-ring seal is a good seal, with a major caveat: it no longer seals so well when the O-ring has aged and it starts to flatten out. When that happens you no longer have as good a seal as when it was new. When the O-ring reaches this stage perhaps the ScottOiler keeps the pin wear at a slower rate, and some oil actually gets past the deteriorated O-ring. Sorry, but I just can't see O-rings never deteriorating enough to allow oil past the seal. We used O-ring seals a ton where I retired from and they had to be replaced because they would start to leak as the O-ring flattened out and lost its "tension" against the sealing surface. I have removed a couple drive chains and noticed that the O-rings were seriously flattened and/or distorted. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer lazyeye Posted July 24, 2017 Author Member Contributer Share Posted July 24, 2017 On Sunday I very carefully cleaned, let dry, and re-lubed my chain. The links are definitely stiff, like a worn out chain, except that the chain hasn't stretched past the Honda Good/No Good sticker. I have a new one on order so hopefully I won't be down too long. I'm going to try the Motul lube/brush thing on the next one. Thank you all for commenting. I've been doing this for a while, but there's always something to be done better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinigami Posted July 24, 2017 Share Posted July 24, 2017 24K on my OEM chain, one adjustment since new. I lube every 200 miles with Honda Lube with Moly. Sometimes I wipe the chain off and sometimes I don't. Sprockets look good too. Now, rear tires are another matter- I am lucky to get 3800-4000 miles from a sport-touring rear. I spend a lot of time in the canyons, and am not shy about giving it the stick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer BusyLittleShop Posted July 24, 2017 Member Contributer Share Posted July 24, 2017 8 hours ago, FJ12Ryder said: Sorry, but I just can't see O-rings never deteriorating enough to allow oil past the seal. No problem... Technically speaking the old rubber O rings are no longer employed by chain manufactures and the reasons are: 1)Poor Resistance to Drying Out (as you pointed out) 2)High Drag 3)Sealed at only 2 points 4)No Reservoirs of Lube Currently we have the X rings designed out of the new fluoroelastomer product known commercially as Viton or Kalrez and reasons are: 1)Excellent Resistance to Drying Out 2)Low Drag 3)Seals at 4 points 4)Grooved Reservoirs of Factory installed Grease What that means for us is the fact Viton or Kalrez X rings will be 100% serviceable far beyond a chain's first adjustment mileage point where metal to metal wear begins to happen at the critical pin and roller junction... For an Auto Oiler to be cost effective first remove the X rings so the oil has a chance to reach the critical pin and roller junction... next enclose the drive train to isolate the oil fling from coating your prize in muck... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer FJ12Ryder Posted July 24, 2017 Member Contributer Share Posted July 24, 2017 Yeah, we used a lot of those too, but we called them quad rings. They do seal better than O-rings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Rectaltronics Posted July 26, 2017 Member Contributer Share Posted July 26, 2017 There was some question about the location and/or appearance of the chain wear sticker so here's a pic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RVFR Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 Well since this topic got me thinking, as I was all ready looking at 520 options, which I will do when the time comes. But in the mean time I'll follow Larrys lead. Good stuff, think it's my new to go to slippery stuff. Only small hassle is getting the secondary chain debris catcher out of the way to be able to apply it like it suppose to be. Fixed that by replacing the 8mm socket head with button head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Bent Posted August 9, 2017 Member Contributer Share Posted August 9, 2017 On 7/24/2017 at 2:21 PM, Shinigami said: 24K on my OEM chain, one adjustment since new. I lube every 200 miles with Honda Lube with Moly. Sometimes I wipe the chain off and sometimes I don't. Sprockets look good too. Now, rear tires are another matter- I am lucky to get 3800-4000 miles from a sport-touring rear. I spend a lot of time in the canyons, and am not shy about giving it the stick. I've read and seen pics of K&N oil filters lubing rear tires very well.....if you survive the lube event..... On a more serious note, I too like the low viscosity Honda Moly chain lube. IMHO, thick waxy chain lubes attract and hold sand and grit which is not chain friendly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Woodie Posted August 10, 2017 Member Contributer Share Posted August 10, 2017 Hmmmm. . . 32k miles on the Sprint chain. weekly oil with 10W/40. Yup it flings off but I have lots of it to spare and so far I've not had any problems. It's last MOT the Chain adjustment got mentioned but not chain wear. It's going to get changed as soon as I get the other bike back on the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Skids Posted August 10, 2017 Member Contributer Share Posted August 10, 2017 On 20/07/2017 at 8:05 PM, BusyLittleShop said: Mileage is a loose standard because wear depends on so many variables... A more accurate standard of chain wear is after the 3rd adjustment because that is undeniable evidence that the factory installed grease is beginning to fail to lube the critical pin roller junction hidden behind the X ring... the length of the chain is growing because of this metal to metal wear... I can not call a chain serviceable that is grinding metal... it's like saying that a dry bearing that runs ruff is acceptable... the net result is another 2 to 3% drop in RWHP as more energy is lost grinding metal behind the X ring... This is what we don't see behind the X rings... metal to metal wear every time we adjust the chain that eats into our engine's available HP... a new pin measures 206.5 and wears down to 205.5 at the 8K mile mark... looks good to the naked eye but multiply that 1 thousand of an inch times 108 links and you have 108 thousands of an inch wear or about the range of the green marks provided by Honda's wear gauge... 202.8 show the very visible wear at the 12K mile mark... the pins are turning red from extreme heat of grinding dry metal... a chain in this condition may consume up to 6 to 8% of our RWHP... not to mention it may snap into and cause case damage... Honda sticker provided a handy guide to monitor chain wear... stay with in the green and you'll be looking for a new chain and sprockets at the 8 to 10K mile mark... What we are lubing are external roller and between the roller and the sprockets (red area in my drawing)... we are not lubing the X rings nor behind the X rings so any oil applied in that effort is a waste and will only fling off... BLS - you've convinced me you know a lot more than I do so what sort of chain/sprocket maintenance routine would you recommend please? The Honda wear sticker fell off my '15 800X the other week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Mohawk Posted August 10, 2017 Member Contributer Share Posted August 10, 2017 Internal wear on chains is as per Larry's posts, but he missed a trick, the pin & the bearing wear, so those measurements should be doubled from what you see on the pin. Further more the bearing becomes oblong as it wears as does the pin in the opposite dimension. It's these components that decide how long your chain is & thus the apparent wear. External lubrication only lubes the roller on the outside of each chain link end bearing. The dirt & wear on these determines the slip load wear on the sprockets & the tension on the inner pin is increased when these rollers do NOT slip into the teeth of the sprocket. Thus scot oiler etc by keeping the rollers lubed at the same level ALL of the time, means the dynamic loads applied to the inner pins/bearings are reduced, thus extending the life of the chain. You have to view the WHOLE thing, not anyone component of the chain, even though only one point shows the wear that increases the chains length & thus its service life. Since most larger bikes have rivetted master links, then the old remove, cleaned & measure rarely gets done, because you need to sacrifice a link every time. Most people claiming extreme mileage will find their chain was worn out long ago if they checked them when they removed them. The simple test is the full bend test, that anyone can do. On a clean flat surface roll your new chain out flat in the same plane as it fits on the bike i.e. rollers horizontal. Now hold one end & bend the chain sideways with a light pressure & mark where the other end stops, it won't bend far. This is the NEW chain inner pin/bearing clearance. Now do the same beside it with the old chain, you will find it bends a LONG way further than the new chain, that is the wear since new you have added. Now if you put a rod (screw driver etc) through the end links & pull the chains taught, you will see the extra length of the old chain. IIRC the recommended stretch in a roller chain is around 3% (or 25mm for 530x108) best is 1.5% (12.5mm) or less, the maximum would be 33mm but that's bad. More details here https://www.diamondchain.com/understanding-wear-life/ The manufacturers try to make all links the same, but its rarely the case, so one part of a chain can be worn out whilst the rest is well within spec, if you are really keen, you can break chains & keep the good parts & link them to make a part worn chain, not that I'd recommend it though ;( As always YMMV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer gig Posted August 13, 2017 Member Contributer Share Posted August 13, 2017 15,000 on a 520 super light steal sprocket and chain, sprocketcenter is the best I've found Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Thumbs Posted August 13, 2017 Member Contributer Share Posted August 13, 2017 The old standard way of trying to pull the chain off the rear sprocket still stands as the single simplest check on chain wear, if it moves it's finished Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer VFROZ Posted August 14, 2017 Member Contributer Share Posted August 14, 2017 14 hours ago, Thumbs said: The old standard way of trying to pull the chain off the rear sprocket still stands as the single simplest check on chain wear, if it moves it's finished Hear hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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