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End of an Era - No More VFR?


didit

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Taking a moment before diving into the days work, figured I'd look at what Honda has coming up for our brand next / this year.

 

No where is there a VFR (other than the dual sport 1200) listed on the site.

Hold on to your beloved as they may one day be the fodder of tales so strange that they'd be hard to believe.

I used to 'dial' a telephone, after waiting for my neighbour to finish.

I used to 'rewind and return' movies to a store.

I used to play games that came out & went back into a box, with other people in the room and actually laughing out loud with them.

 

no more vfr.PNG

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19 minutes ago, alwaysaware said:

I just found this on the Honda world wide site.  Future V4 concepts.

 

 

http://world.honda.com/design/designers-talk/v4/index.html

 

I'm thinking that might be a little dated, as that design went out with the 7th gen.

The last incarnation had more of a Ducatti/ 4th Gen splicing.  The X headlight design and double clipped body panels are gone now.

Still, beautiful symmetry and V4 reliability.   

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I haven't been on VFRD in many months, nor riding that much for that matter, but I am both surprised and curious that this hasn't been talked about more in the VFR community. At a present look at powersports.honda.com (US), VFR is listed only up to 2015 modelsUK site shows 2017 model (specifications). Is the VFR dead in terms of production and model offering as we know it?  Going to the International Motorcycle Show in Long Beach last month, stopped by the American Honda Powersports exhibit. I didn't really get a chance to get the ear of a Honda rep that was really knowledgeable of street models, but nonetheless, I found an available rep, and he did share some information (he represented accessories for powersports line). When I didn't see a VFR in their presentation lineup, he said that they weren't producing any for 2018 and what remains in inventory would be the last. He did indicate that there could be something on the way, but didn't have any further knowledge. Vague, I know...as it's still hearsay as far as I see it. 

 

But to the VFR community: has the VFR, after almost a 30-year run, hit the end of an era? Has this been discussed on any other threads here? I'll keep searching. 

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In the car business sedans are really taking it in the chin and SUVs and CUVs are the preferred form factor among buyers. Perhaps the VFR sport tourer form has likewise been bypassed in favor of adventure form bikes or cruiser forms. From what I have heard, focused sport bikes are also not selling well either here in the US. The V4 is a valuable design and I don’t think Honda will abandon it but it may see its future in crossover forms until sport tourers are rediscovered.

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Sport Tourers are not the rage for now. Adventure touring bikes and naked sport bikes are the rage.

Everything ends. If I destroyed my VFR today I'd probably cruise up to the dealership and buy one of Yamaha's triple cylinder bikes rather than a '15 leftover VFR.

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I would agree with ya'll.  Adventure tour seems to attract the overall touring crowd.

So many times, taunted be the mysterious gravel road shouting "don't you wanna know where I go?".

 

Been considering upgrading from my '04, but I don't think I'd go past the '09 so I can keep all the luggage, seat, farkles I've collected.

Besides, I still prefer the undertail exhaust to the goalie pad hiding the SSSA on the side.

 

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On 12/16/2017 at 12:59 PM, lazyeye said:

 If I destroyed my VFR today I'd probably cruise up to the dealership and buy one of Yamaha's triple cylinder bikes rather than a '15 leftover VFR.

I am sooooo close to buying a yellow and black XSR900. That triple motor is very, very, real world good.

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Interesting...  That may be the push I need to get an electric bike then after I run that 6th gen of mine into the ground. Will take a while tho...   Especially now that I have an older V-Strom to play with too. 

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11 hours ago, timmythecop said:

I am sooooo close to buying a yellow and black XSR900. That triple motor is very, very, real world good.

I have had an mt09 as an everyday ride since 2014. I put 20,000ks on one, and I'm up to 54000ks on the second.  It is a brilliant motor.

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9 hours ago, jhenley17 said:

So, give us a lighter V4 in a lighter frame. Strip the fairings off if it'll help sales, I won't mind.


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I wonder if the whole V4 thing in a mass produced, mid price, street bike is even really viable anymore.   It seems, to me, that today's I4 engines generate just as linear a power band, with less complexity and cost, whereas 10-15 years ago I'd say that the V4 really had an edge.  I certainly could be wrong, though.  I mean, if forced induction becomes a thing, a V4 certainly continues to make sense because it creates a natural space to locate the TC/SC.  But other than that, I'm just not seeing the upside.  I mean, I bought my '14 because I'd always wanted a VFR and because of the ridiculous discount I got on it.  No way in hell would I have ever paid $12k for it.  And even at the price I got, if I were not a long term fan  of the VFR with disposable income and multiple bikes, I probably wouldn't have bought it -- I'd have bought a Kawasaki 1000 or something along those lines to commute on instead. 

 

And it's not just even the price, it's the performance -- the current engine is way underpowered for its displacement.     The I4 in the GSXR 750, for example, puts out almost 30 more hp and 5 ft/lb of torque, AND manages to deliver that power just as low in the rpm range as the VFR does.  And by the time you hit 5500 rpm or so, the GSXR engine is way ahead of the VFR.  Honda's V4 used to be the showcase of the company's performance, but now, as much as I love mine, it really falls short to the competition.  And it bums me out.

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1 hour ago, litigatin said:

I wonder if the whole V4 thing in a mass produced, mid price, street bike is even really viable anymore.   It seems, to me, that today's I4 engines generate just as linear a power band, with less complexity and cost, whereas 10-15 years ago I'd say that the V4 really had an edge.  I certainly could be wrong, though.  I mean, if forced induction becomes a thing, a V4 certainly continues to make sense because it creates a natural space to locate the TC/SC.  But other than that, I'm just not seeing the upside.  I mean, I bought my '14 because I'd always wanted a VFR and because of the ridiculous discount I got on it.  No way in hell would I have ever paid $12k for it.  And even at the price I got, if I were not a long term fan  of the VFR with disposable income and multiple bikes, I probably wouldn't have bought it -- I'd have bought a Kawasaki 1000 or something along those lines to commute on instead. 

 

And it's not just even the price, it's the performance -- the current engine is way underpowered for its displacement.     The I4 in the GSXR 750, for example, puts out almost 30 more hp and 5 ft/lb of torque, AND manages to deliver that power just as low in the rpm range as the VFR does.  And by the time you hit 5500 rpm or so, the GSXR engine is way ahead of the VFR.  Honda's V4 used to be the showcase of the company's performance, but now, as much as I love mine, it really falls short to the competition.  And it bums me out.

Treason I say!   :-)  

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18 minutes ago, Willy said:

Treason I say!   :-)  

I know, man.   It's so weird to admit that while "we" all love it, I can understand why a lot of folks look at it and don't get the appeal.  I couldn't say for sure, but if I had to guess, I'd bet the average VFR fan is over 40, a former sportbike rider who doesn't feel like riding a beast anymore, and someone who grew up loving the line.  Sure, there's something special about the bike, character, etc etc, but anyone looking at it on paper or during a test ride in a vacuum would be hard pressed to say it is better than its competitors.  Not that I give a damn; it's still the first bike I grab the keys for every day.

 

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The average age of motorcyclist is over 40. That's a big issue for the industry. A new VFR that was our dream bike would still only sell in limited quantities. We need new blood.

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I think that they need to develop a new V4 if they're going to build another one. This lump is beyond long-in-the-tooth. Bulletproof, yes, but with newer technology, I believe they could produce something with 20-30% more power and still be rock-solid. Now, would it be profitable? I guess that's for their bean counters to decide, and the answer seems to be "no." For whatever reason, even amongst sport riders, most don't even know what the 8th gen is.

Anyways, the power delivery isn't quite like any screamer I've ridden. I believe that's why it's the preferred setup for MotoGP and the fastest Italians (though the bit of exotica is a bit of a factor as well for the latter.) Really, though, I'd be just as happy with a crossplane I4 if a V4 isn't viable.


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4 hours ago, litigatin said:

And it's not just even the price, it's the performance -- the current engine is way underpowered for its displacement.     The I4 in the GSXR 750, for example, puts out almost 30 more hp and 5 ft/lb of torque, AND manages to deliver that power just as low in the rpm range as the VFR does.  And by the time you hit 5500 rpm or so, the GSXR engine is way ahead of the VFR.  Honda's V4 used to be the showcase of the company's performance, but now, as much as I love mine, it really falls short to the competition.  And it bums me out.

We really shouldn't be comparing the VFR800 to a current generation sportbike.  Has anyone seen any die-hard Ducatisti complain that the new Supersport is underpowered when compared to the 959 Panigale?  One is a sportbike that emphasizes maximum power at the loftiest RPM they can get.  The other is a streetbike meant for overall competence & balanced performance.  If you want to compare apples to apples, then compare the VFR to the Supersport.  Both have around 100 rwhp.  The SS is faster by a hair.  The question should be, will the VFR800 really fall miserably behind a SS?  Does the VFR800 feel like a penalty box when you ride it?  In other words, does it really suck to ride?  Answers are all no!  The VFR800 is fun to ride, handles great, looks great, high quality, reliable, etc.  Is not having the extra 20 horsepower like that from a Kawasaki Z1000 holding you back?  Even today's Suzuki GSX-S750 puts out 100 rwhp. 

 

If you are looking for a middle class sport bike, look no further than the CBR600RR.  Don't let the "600" fool you into thinking it's slow.  It is FAST...faster than the VFR800 of ANY generation.  Then there's the liter bikes if you must have the "1000" between your legs.  If you want one then get one, there is no shame in it.  It's quite possible that the VFR800's deficiencies are all in our heads?  Because the current VFR800 and even the prior gens will rocket you to 100 mph pretty quickly and keep on going to the top end of 140 mph.  It's plenty fast enough for most folks.  It falls within the sweet spot of having just enough power to be entertaining and exciting without having to work too hard for it, yet not having so much power that you rarely if ever get to use it.

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2 hours ago, jhenley17 said:

I think that they need to develop a new V4 if they're going to build another one. This lump is beyond long-in-the-tooth. Bulletproof, yes, but with newer technology, I believe they could produce something with 20-30% more power and still be rock-solid. Now, would it be profitable? I guess that's for their bean counters to decide, and the answer seems to be "no." For whatever reason, even amongst sport riders, most don't even know what the 8th gen is.

Anyways, the power delivery isn't quite like any screamer I've ridden. I believe that's why it's the preferred setup for MotoGP and the fastest Italians (though the bit of exotica is a bit of a factor as well for the latter.) Really, though, I'd be just as happy with a crossplane I4 if a V4 isn't viable.


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I don't think there are any screamer engines in production today.  Correct me if I'm wrong.  I believe if there was we would know about it by hearing the weird sounding exhaust from the 1-2-3-4 firing order.  The inline-4's are the closest to a screamer.  Crossplane I4's advantage is its beautiful sound and on-track tire saving capability and relatively less complex valvetrain.  In street riding it just sounds bad-ass.  I do agree...I prefer the simpler layout of the I-4 and the sound of it having that X-Plane crank.  But realistically, there is a higher probability that Honda will just sport-tour-ize the CB1000R than re-design an all new VFR800.  

 

Now if Honda decided to answer the Ducati Supersport, they would give us a new VFR800 that is lighter (it would ditch the centerstand for sure and don't even think about putting a top case on one!), and maybe another 7-10 rwhp (that's a lot to ask).  They CAN do it.  But will they?  How well is Ducati selling the SS?  LOL!

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Sorry, I was using "screamer" to refer to an even-firing I4. Is that incorrect?

The sound is definitely the advantage I care more about as I don't have a bike on the track, but I looking for a more quantifiable advantage to the V4 and cross plane I4. As for the power, no, it's not needed, but it is wanted. Slightly-above-average cars can nearly keep up with me above 80. I want to easily leave anyone behind me. "How often is that," you ask? "Mind your own business," I say. Anyways, my point is that it may not really be necessary, but I think they could easily give an 800-1000 120 RWHP without straining anything.


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56 minutes ago, Rogue_Biker said:

We really shouldn't be comparing the VFR800 to a current generation sportbike.  Has anyone seen any die-hard Ducatisti complain that the new Supersport is underpowered when compared to the 959 Panigale?  One is a sportbike that emphasizes maximum power at the loftiest RPM they can get.  The other is a streetbike meant for overall competence & balanced performance.  If you want to compare apples to apples, then compare the VFR to the Supersport.  Both have around 100 rwhp.  The SS is faster by a hair.  The question should be, will the VFR800 really fall miserably behind a SS?  Does the VFR800 feel like a penalty box when you ride it?  In other words, does it really suck to ride?  Answers are all no!  The VFR800 is fun to ride, handles great, looks great, high quality, reliable, etc.  Is not having the extra 20 horsepower like that from a Kawasaki Z1000 holding you back?  Even today's Suzuki GSX-S750 puts out 100 rwhp. 

 

If you are looking for a middle class sport bike, look no further than the CBR600RR.  Don't let the "600" fool you into thinking it's slow.  It is FAST...faster than the VFR800 of ANY generation.  Then there's the liter bikes if you must have the "1000" between your legs.  If you want one then get one, there is no shame in it.  It's quite possible that the VFR800's deficiencies are all in our heads?  Because the current VFR800 and even the prior gens will rocket you to 100 mph pretty quickly and keep on going to the top end of 140 mph.  It's plenty fast enough for most folks.  It falls within the sweet spot of having just enough power to be entertaining and exciting without having to work too hard for it, yet not having so much power that you rarely if ever get to use it.

 

Yes and no, I suppose. 

In the "yes" camp, I picked up the VFR because I needed a more commuter oriented bike, and my ZX-14R was -- despite 20+ years on sportbikes -- a bit too much power for the street (it's now, basically, relegated to drag strip only, with the occasional day here and there on the street).   So, yeah, I personally wanted something with around 100 rwhp to ride on a daily basis, because I found 200 rwhp to be silly for a daily rider.  I don't enjoy breaking the rear tire loose on public roads...just not my cup of tea.  So, yes, you're right -- it's just enough horsepower for me and my needs.  But I'm probably not your typical bike buyer these days.  

 

In the "no" camp, I think we can't ignore that it's hard for many prospective buyers to justify spending more money for a bike with less horsepower.  Let's say you're looking to trade in a first or second bike for something a bit sportier, but also something that you want to use to commute or for moderate touring.  The siren song of the Ninja 1000 or a comparable is pretty hard to block out -- 30 more hp and similar comfort for less money.  And a lot of folks -- right or wrong -- buy bikes not just because they're what they want, but because there's a **** waving component to it.  I think we can't completely factor out the foregoing, because if people didn't want more than the VFR delivers, leftover new VFRs wouldn't be going in the $6k range, and Honda would still be importing them to the US.  And just to be clear, I think but for that last bit, I'd be a heck of a lot more likely to say that the VFR is just fine how it is (it certainly is for me), but if people aren't buying them I guess they're just not what most people want, even if it is what we want.  

 

And as far as 600cc supersports go?  Those days are long past for me, my friend.  I'll stick with the VFR for the road and the ZX for the track. :)

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Why cant we at least get the torquey 996 vee-twin super hawk / rc51 engine in a cool thoroghly modern sport tourer??  Light weight and with plenty of oompf!

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Personally I’m not asking Honda to change the VFR, to add more to it or take away from it, or to change it from what it is now, all I’m asking for Honda to give us a modern version of the RC-30/RC-45.

 

When those two models were released, they still had the standard VFR for sale. Buyers had a choice, get the “race derived” VFR or the “race” version RC model. That’s what I’m still hoping to see happen!

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12 hours ago, keef said:

I have had an mt09 as an everyday ride since 2014. I put 20,000ks on one, and I'm up to 54000ks on the second.  It is a brilliant motor.

I put a ton of KMs on a MT09, in the Eifel. Loved the motor long time.

 

FB_IMG_1513639011709.jpg

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