Hedgehog Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 Due to age and health, I don't ride much anymore. I've got inspections coming up, so I did the yearly start and check routine on the VFR and the Duck. The VFR didn't start, though it cranked easily. So, I checked to hear the fuel pump, and it was silent. I pulled the fuel pump assembly out, and there was a bunch of black granulated junk in the tank, which turns out to be rust. There's also a thing called an "intake rubber", which was hard and broken etc. This thing is at the intake to the fuel pump, and it holds a wire mesh. So, anyway, my questions are the obvious ones: Have you had this happen to you? Did you bother replacing the rubber thingy and the wire mesh? And most importantly, did your injectors get clogged in the process? The fuel filter wasn't clogged, so I'm hoping that's a sign that the fuel pump froze before anything got through. Oh, and what fuel tank sealant is considered the best at the moment? I did the tank on my 900SS with POR-15 about 15 years ago, but I think I'll send this one out to have it done by one of the local bike shops. If you're in Houston, I'm just down the road from Wild West Motoplex. Should I take the tank there, or to MPH Cycles a few miles in the other direction? Thanks for reading, Bob Stewart Houston, TX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer jeffyjeff Posted February 8, 2017 Member Contributer Share Posted February 8, 2017 I replaced that rubber piece on mine. Like yours, mine got brittle and broke apart when I took the pump out to service the fuel filter. I rode around without it for a couple of weeks until the new one came in, then took out the pump a second time to replace the rubber and the fuel return metal mesh. Can't help you with the tank sealant, sorry, but I can confirm that the fuel pump rubber will get brittle even if you keep clean fuel in your tank. Jeff J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedgehog Posted February 8, 2017 Author Share Posted February 8, 2017 Hi Jeff, Thanks for the reply. Did you have to replace or clean the injectors? I'm hoping for the best, but I sort of expect to have to pull the thing completely apart to replace them. If I do, I'll be able to replace a seepage that I've been treating with Bardahl. I've been thinking about the plastic thingamadoodle, and I decided to just leave it off. I'm sure the coily metal bit had some purpose, but given the change in gas over the past 20 years, I'm not so sure it's still relevant. I also found out that the local dealers refer tanks out to radiator shops, and those shops seemingly boil out the thanks in an acid bath (removing the paint) and then spray "red stuff" inside them to seal them. As I can't justify paying the worth of the bike to have the tank professionally restored and repainted, I've got some POR-15 on the way. I'm not looking forward to doing it, but I did the Duck 15 years or so ago. IIRC, the most important gear is gloves and eye protection. And wrapping the tank up in gaffer tape is worth the effort, as well. So, to paraphrase Phineas: on Thursday, I know what I'm going to be doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer SCguy Posted February 8, 2017 Member Contributer Share Posted February 8, 2017 Here's my solution from when my strainer broke Removing the fuel pump to coat the tank, I broke the fuel pump straxiner, which is only available from Honda as a pump subassembly at $270. My other options were to find a replacement strainer that fit or to buy an aftermarket, no name pump and hope it fit and would be reliable.I found an automotive strainer that fits the pump. It's intended application is the 1995 Honda Accord F22B2, it's larger and at a slightly different angle, but it fits. At $19, it's less of a sting to the wallet.Sent from my LG-H900 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer jeffyjeff Posted February 8, 2017 Member Contributer Share Posted February 8, 2017 The odd thing is that the wire mesh is on the fuel return, not the intake. It might be there to diffuse the fuel returning to the tank, so that the pump does not pick up hot fuel. I do not think its function is to filter; what good would it be to filter fuel after it already passed through the throttle body? I am optimistic that your injectors are fine, the fuel filter should easily be able to keep rust out of the system. Jeff J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedgehog Posted February 8, 2017 Author Share Posted February 8, 2017 Hi SCguy, I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing. There is, indeed, a strainer at the inlet to the fuel pump. It's white, made of some sort of plastic and is a fine mesh. That's not what I'm talking about. There is a black rubber/plastic piece that is there only to contain a wire mesh; which looks sort of like a brillo pad. The wire mesh sits on top of the strainer that I think you're talking about. The return line from the pressurized fuel feed goes to a shaped hose that sprays right on top of the brillo pad. I found an aftermarket fuel pump on ebay that seems to be identical to the one I'm removing, right down to the nib and spring-nut used to fit the strainer. The shape of the strainer is different, but that's no big deal. There is rust on the brackets for both the fuel pump and the fuel gauge, but I knocked most of that off with a stainless steel brush. I plan to paint both brackets with POR-15. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedgehog Posted February 8, 2017 Author Share Posted February 8, 2017 Hi Jeff, You're probably right. I wonder if I should aim the shaped return hose away from the fuel pump? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer jeffyjeff Posted February 8, 2017 Member Contributer Share Posted February 8, 2017 1 hour ago, Hedgehog said: Hi Jeff, You're probably right. I wonder if I should aim the shaped return hose away from the fuel pump? If you decide to leave the brillo pad out, it probably wouldn't hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer SCguy Posted February 8, 2017 Member Contributer Share Posted February 8, 2017 Gotcha. Yeah, not totally sure of the purpose. Maybe, just maybe, it's to keep the fuel return from spraying away fuel from the strainer when you're really low on fuel? More of a diffuser?Sent from my LG-H900 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedgehog Posted February 8, 2017 Author Share Posted February 8, 2017 Hi SCguy, That's actually plausible! And I was thinking about the idea of aiming the hose to the side. It's a tight fit go get the fuel pump assembly in and out, so maybe they decided the diffuser was the easiest solution. I'll figure it out when I put it all back together. Thanks everyone for the responses. You've been a big help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedgehog Posted February 8, 2017 Author Share Posted February 8, 2017 One more thing I should really add to this thread. The hose from the pump to the fuel filter is no longer made, but you can still get the fuel filter. The problem is that the hose has a 180 degree loop in it, and that means you'll need to loop a regular piece of fuel hose back to connect them. That's always chancy if you make the loop too tight. The later models introduced a change to the fuel filter, which puts the loop in the metal hose fitting, allowing a straight piece of hose to connect it to the pump. So, strongly consider using a later model filter and hose if you have to go down this road. A bit late for me, but maybe it'll help someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedgehog Posted February 9, 2017 Author Share Posted February 9, 2017 That doesn't feel right to me. There are plenty of other ways they could have done that that don't involved a brillo pad and a piece of plastic. And I think the brillo pad would tend to hold air/gas vapor rather than allowing it to disperse or re-liquefy. On my '94 Ducati, they just have the return line spray from the top of the tank. But I suspect that Honda, being FI, returns a lot more gas than the Duck, which is carburetted with only 3PSI fuel pressure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedgehog Posted February 12, 2017 Author Share Posted February 12, 2017 I thought I'd make some remarks on applying the POR-15, in case anyone is interested. I planned poorly, based on the experience I had with the Ducati. The access hole for the fuel pump assembly is too large to seal with just tape - or at least with the tape I was using. So, if you reseal your tank, consider going to Hobby Lobby (or similar) and getting some 1/4" wood veneer/plywood. Shape and drill that to cover the fuel pump hole, and use the original rubber gasket to seal it. If you have some 1/16" steel sheet and can do it with that, that would be better. The other problem is that there is no drain hole, and none of the openings into the tank are at low spots. So, you have a problem when trying to empty the excess POR-15 sealant. I'd suggest you get some sort of siphon pump to pump it out. The squeeze bulb siphon pumps at Autozone (etc) would probably work fine. There are also some large syringes that you can get that you could use. What I had on hand wasn't quite good enough. I got out most of the excess, but there's a smallish puddle that I managed to spread out before it got too thick. But, beyond the spills of both the cleaner and the etching solution hinted at above, and the problems emptying the tank, things went pretty well. I'm happy with the result. It's been curing since yesterday, and I have 3 more days of curing before I can put everything back together. Oh yeah. One more thing. I did manage to spill some of the POR-15 sealant on the tank. Fortunately, I had already planned for that and had some spray carb cleaner ready. Spray a bit of that (or brake cleaner or whatever) on a paper towel and the stuff comes off easily. Wait until it dries, though, and I get the idea that it'll be a permanent reminder of your day with the tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichC Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 I had the exact experience with my 2000 vfr. I was able to remove all the rust from the gas tank and the fuel pump mounting assembly with white vinegar. The vinegar treatment also un seized my fuel pump. That rubber box that holds the Brillo pad had disintegrated as did the J shaped hose that connects to it. Those parts are available and inexpensive. As for the 4 injectors, I went through the ordeal of removing the throttle body in order to remove the fuel rails and gain access to the injectors. Neither of the shop manuals I had contained the 'truth' regarding the removal of the injectors or the reinstallation of the throttle body. The good news was that after 3 days of soaking the the injectors in Seafoam solvent, the injectors came clean. I made a test rig to fire each injector using a 9v battery, a spray can of Gumout and done fuel line hose. The injectors cleaned up ok. The whole thing went back together with the help of a surgical tool I used to grab the various hoses and slide them back where they belonged. This was a big job time wise but it went together perfectly and the bike runs like new. I replaced all the little crush washers, fuel hoses, gas filter, etc. My dealer said that they charge between $1,500 and $2,000 for that repair. My bike sat unused for 7 years before I bought it. Otherwise the bike looks perfect with only 16,000 miles on it. I really like the bike and the new Michelin PR4 tires I had them install. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedgehog Posted February 16, 2017 Author Share Posted February 16, 2017 Hi Rich, Thanks for adding to this thread. My daughter would agree that vinegar is the wonder chemical of the ages. =) What did you mean when you said "Neither of the shop manuals I had contained the 'truth' regarding the removal of the injectors or the reinstallation of the throttle body."? I've never done this on this bike, and if there are some gotchas, please let me (and others) know what the 'truth' is. This is something that I really want to avoid if at all possible. The rest of the parts should be in today, so I hope to have it back together by tomorrow evening. I did run into an additional problem along the way. One of the connector tabs on the fuel sensor broke off as I was cleaning it. So, I filed the top of the metal connector piece and soldered the wire directly to that. That, of course, melted the plastic and the metal piece sank about .005" into the plastic. so, on the other side, I had to dig the clear epoxy out and solder that side. The people at JB Weld assured me that their epoxy is just fine immersed in fuel, so I coated the plastic part on both sides of the mounting plate with JB Weld. My tubes were a bit old, so I had to heat it to get it to cure. Fortunately, I've got a small electronics rework station here with a variable heat gun. I set that at 100 degrees C, which is low enough that the plastic didn't melt still more, but high enough that the epoxy cured, as normal. It's never just a simple straightforward job to fix an old bike, is it? When this is done, I need to pop the carbs out of the Duck and give them a cleaning. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedgehog Posted February 18, 2017 Author Share Posted February 18, 2017 Hi Guys, Just a final followup on this. I didn't verify that the new fuel pump actually spun before I put it all together. Fortunately, I hadn't put gas in, so the R&R was easy. The problem was that I was too sloppy with the threadlocker on the fuel pump mounting. That's where the ground lead of the fuel pump is attached. So, there was no path for the voltage to ground. After I cleaned that up, I verified quickly that it spun with power and then assembled everything. I put the 2 gal of gas back in that I had drained out, and it fired right up! So, that was lucky - no injector problems! I did decide to order a fuel filter for a 2002 VFR - the one with the elbow done in metal. And it fits perfectly. So, I don't have to worry about the doubled back fuel hose crimping and starving it for fuel. So, this thread is solved! Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer SCguy Posted February 20, 2017 Member Contributer Share Posted February 20, 2017 Glad to hear it man. Sent from my LG-H900 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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