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Gear Driven Cam Conversion & Restoration


Loftust

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I've been thinking that the New Members section of the forum is perhaps not the best place to keep my hybrid conversion and restoration thread updated, so I have decided to move it here instead. Here's the background for anyone who hasn't seen it yet:

 

 

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With the revised drawings sent to the fabricator (I hope to have them this week), I can now turn my attention to working out how to constrain the coils in the spark plug tubes, and have ordered a second hand set of cam covers so that I can mock up a couple of plates to secure them.


The front coils will be secured by bolting through a ~ 2mm aluminium plate that is secured to the PAIR blanking plate bolt holes.

 

The rear coils will be effectively clamped down - I had to chop the triangular(ish) bolt-hole-part of the coil (see RHS of photo) - it would not fit around the large protruding part of the cover otherwise. I have however seen one person drastically modify their cam cover to accomodate the coil in its entirety - for me though, getting the hacksaw out was much easier and quicker. The PAIR blaking plate bolt holes and longer bolts will be used as per the front cover solution.

 

In the longer term, I would like to have the cam covers tarted up as mine are scrathched quite noticeably; I already have new gaskets, so it's a bit of a no brainer as a longer term aspiration. To that end, I will eventually (probably towards the end of the year) have some bolt hole posts TIG welded onto covers, and have the protruding part modified to accomodate the entire coil; powdercoating would follow thereafter.    

 

My PCIII should be here on Wednesday, ahving taken an unexpected detour around the UK.

 

s-l300.jpg

 

$_1.JPG

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From Candyman (old thread):

 

"I really like everything that is being done here, but heads up, The Power Commander Fi base map, is for an Fi engine with an Fi ECU, you have an Fi engine and VTEC ECU. The fuel mapping requirements will more than likely be totally different. I would highly recommend not using any base map, towing it to a dyno and having a custom map made. The ignition mapping will be way off as well, but that is another story. It will obviously work, but it is worth looking into, as the ignition timing requirements of 2 valve lean burn (swirl), will be totally different than that of a 4 valve (tumble) arrangement."

 

I'm placing a lot of faith in the fact that someone else has used the same approach as I am, and has had no problems at all with a base map that was 'tuned' via the buttons at a later date - his bike has been fine for ~ 5 years now as well, which adds a degree of credibility. I intend to be very sensitive to potential fuelling issues when riding the bike to a dyno for a proper setup, understanding that a base map is not ideal, and keeping the revs below 6k to err on the side of caution. If I detect any sort of issues, then I will stop and reassess.

 

 

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I've changed my mind a little about how to secure the coils in the cam covers. I was planning on making some sort of bracket arrangement, but have now decided to bond the adaptors in place with JB weld, and have the cam covers powdercoated. The rubber seal on the coils is very snug around the adaptors, so I'm fairly confident that they will stay in place; the Fi HT leads aren't held in place with bolts either and rely on friction alone. Time will of course tell if I'm right, and I can always revert to my original approach if needed. 

 

Jobs for the weekend include:

 

- Fitting Power Commander - I was sent a PCV rather than PCIII as the latter has been discontinued.

- Fitting chain

- Badegring M&P as to the whereabouts of my brake lines

- Fitting oil filter

- Topping up oil

- Ordering tyres

Wiring heated grips (inc relay)

 

When the wheels are powdercoated, I will fit the new bearings to the front wheel, and have the tyres fitted. 

 

When the brake lines eventually rock up, I'll be able to fit the nose cone, mirrors, mirror extenders, and test the headlights.

 

I should have the cam cover adaptors early next week too, which will allow me to fit the tank (after changing the spark plugs) and stick some fuel in!

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From Candyman (old thread):
 

"I really like everything that is being done here, but heads up, The Power Commander Fi base map, is for an Fi engine with an Fi ECU, you have an Fi engine and VTEC ECU. The fuel mapping requirements will more than likely be totally different. I would highly recommend not using any base map, towing it to a dyno and having a custom map made. The ignition mapping will be way off as well, but that is another story. It will obviously work, but it is worth looking into, as the ignition timing requirements of 2 valve lean burn (swirl), will be totally different than that of a 4 valve (tumble) arrangement."

 

I'm placing a lot of faith in the fact that someone else has used the same approach as I am, and has had no problems at all with a base map that was 'tuned' via the buttons at a later date - his bike has been fine for ~ 5 years now as well, which adds a degree of credibility. I intend to be very sensitive to potential fuelling issues when riding the bike to a dyno for a proper setup, understanding that a base map is not ideal, and keeping the revs below 6k to err on the side of caution. If I detect any sort of issues, then I will stop and reassess.

 

 



That sounds like an awful idea.

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Why do such a great job on everything else on this post an then half ass the tuning? You are obviously a very smart and capable person, but doing something wrong just because someone else did something wrong and their engine didn't break yet, is a bad idea. There is no reason to load a fifth gen base map (they don't even make them for the PCV) into a power Commander for use with a sixth gen ECU.

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4 hours ago, CandyRedRC46 said:

There is no reason to load a fifth gen base map (they don't even make them for the PCV) into a power Commander for use with a sixth gen ECU.

 

I think you've just highlighted a significant flaw with my plan there - I wasn't aware that there are no Fi base maps for the PCV, so thanks for that. It certainly scuppers my intended approach.

 

In your experience, do you think I'd be ok to run the engine to setup the Starter Valves, and up to a couple of thousand revs - it would obviously be extremely helpful to have bled the coolant and rectified any immediate issues before starting the engine at a dyno centre.

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Even if power commander had a PVC fi base map, they still would not have an fi engine with vtec ecu base map, which would be totally different. Just keep a zero map in the PCV until you get it on a dyno.

 

Since no tuning (maybe a percent or two) will be done in the 0% throttle column, syncing the starter valves and burping the coolant before tuning will be fine. I would just avoid any significant throttle or loading until on the dyno.

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50 minutes ago, CandyRedRC46 said:

Even if power commander had a PVC fi base map, they still would not have an fi engine with vtec ecu base map, which would be totally different. Just keep a zero map in the PCV until you get it on a dyno.

 

Since no tuning (maybe a percent or two will be done in the 0% throttle column), syncing the starter valves and burping the coolant before tuning will be fine. I would just avoid any significant throttle or loading until on the dyno.

 

That's really helpful advice - thank you :fing02:

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Thought it best to chime in here.

I've done the whole 5th Gen engine in the 6th Gen frame thing and you will be majorly mistaken trying to run anything to do with 5th gen mapping with the 6th gen ECU.

You will need an ECU piggy back that is capable of ignition modification as well as fueling.

So a PCV with the IGN module or a RapidBike Racing unit which I am running.

 

Sorry to rain on your parade but there is a lot of differences between the 5th and 6th gens re ECU, injectors/throttle bodies and you will need to do a fair bit if work to make it successful.

 

Also, you will need to run the VTec changeover solenoid or the ECU will fault.

 

Take a look at me thread on overboring a 5th gen and fitting it to me 2010 6th gen.

 

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On 21/01/2017 at 8:41 AM, HighSideNZ said:

Thought it best to chime in here.

I've done the whole 5th Gen engine in the 6th Gen frame thing and you will be majorly mistaken trying to run anything to do with 5th gen mapping with the 6th gen ECU.

You will need an ECU piggy back that is capable of ignition modification as well as fueling.

So a PCV with the IGN module or a RapidBike Racing unit which I am running.

 

Sorry to rain on your parade but there is a lot of differences between the 5th and 6th gens re ECU, injectors/throttle bodies and you will need to do a fair bit if work to make it successful.

 

Also, you will need to run the VTec changeover solenoid or the ECU will fault.

 

Take a look at me thread on overboring a 5th gen and fitting it to me 2010 6th gen.

 

 

Thanks for your considered advice - I'll have a think about your advice and see what (else) needs doing. At worst, I will put a 5th Gen harness and ECU in, and modify it to handle to the 6th gen lights / electrical loading etc. I'd really rather avoid this, but we shall see what direction I need to take.

 

I've retained the VTEC solenoid and engine sub harness, and now need to earth it to the bike somehow, which will be dead easy. It turns out that the neutral light and oil pressure light don't illuminate without the solenoid being earthed.

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On 1/21/2017 at 1:09 PM, CandyRedRC46 said:

Has anyone even come close to successfully getting a power commander and ignition module to work on a vfr800?

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I'm not aware of anyone, but that doesn't mean it can't.  At least, not yet.  I've still not been back to my garage in the 'States to pick up the PCV and PCIII (and PCII, why not) and bring them back here for testing.  Someday I will.  I was kinda hoping someone else would do it first!

 

Ciao,

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I think it (trying to get PC and ignition module working on a vfr800) was a cool experiment to try out ten years ago, but now that we have rapid bike and hopefully soon the guhl flash, it seems like a waste of time and money.

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The tyres are going on this week, and the cam cover adaptors should be in my paws tomorrow evening. I'll change the plugs and prime the piston rings, then set about bonding the adaptors in the covers before fitting the tank and giving the electrics the last once over.

 

The brake lines will hopefully be delivered tomorrow as well - sorting those out will allow me to fit the nose cone, although the other fairings will remain in the spare room until I'm happy that the engine is running ok at idle and is free of leaks.

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The adaptors are spot on - I've left enough clearance between the adaptors and the spark plug tubes for some JB weld, which will bond the adaptors to the cover, and will be powdercoated in due course. As this is likely to take 2-3 weeks (my powdercoater is very cheap, but my components are fitted around their other work which takes precedence) I have had another set of adaptors manufactured, and they should be turning up this evening. I'll use these ones to mock everything up in the covers that are currently fitted to the engine, and get it running, then transplant the powdercoated covers into the bike at later date.

 

I will hopefully be able to collect the wheels with their boots this afternoon as well :smile:

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6th gen harness and ECU uses three wire automotive style coils not two wires like most bikes. I want to say the s2000 etc interchange.

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5 hours ago, CandyRedRC46 said:

6th gen harness and ECU uses three wire automotive style coils not two wires like most bikes. I want to say the s2000 etc interchange.

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Yeah, they look very much like the S2000 coils - it would be interesting to see if they are the same length etc as they are quite expensive to replace on the S.

 

Veefer - nice rocker covers and brake lines!

 

The wheels with their new boots went on yesterday, which felt like a notable milestone, and it's handy being able to move the bike back and forth. It was however too cold to refit the front left caliper, which probably needs the pistons pushing in a fraction more, so that'll go back on tomorrow - hopefully in tandem with the brake lines if the courier can get their act together.

 

I also sorted out a faux pas with the battery harness, which got me thinking about ground paths for the starter. Because the frame has been powdercoated, I'm unsure if I have a sufficient earth path for the starter, which I would have thought is via the engine, frame, earth lead, then battery. The engine would usually earth itself to the frame via the bare metal contact surfaces where the bolts go through, whereas I am currently relying on the bolts to provide this earth path, which doesn't sit well with me. 

 

I'm therefore tempted to rig up a separate earth lead directly from a bolt on the rear of the block (don't know which one yet), to the battery negative terminal, or where the frame earths itself to the battery at the rear of the frame.

 

Incidentally, I have removed a small area of powdercoat on the rear of the frame so that the battery negative lead is given a decent electrical connection, and did the same at the tank earth point too.

 

Any thoughts would be much appreciated.

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Just type in "099700 070" in a Google search and you will get hits for a lot of coil sticks, for much more than just the 6th gen vfr.

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I think it might be worth buying a single, used 099700 070 ignition coil stick for cheap, just to test out the fitment, as possibly all 099700 070's might not be the same.

Maybe an RSX type could be different than an s2000 or Honda fit etc... Even though they all have the same model number sticks.

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