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Epyon007

5th gen and 6th gen braking systems

47 posts in this topic

When I did the HH pads I lubed up everything and cleaned the pistons as best I could without taking them out. They didn't look to bad, but again its a 20 year old bike so there are all kinds of question marks.  Anyone have some info about taking the calipers apart?  I don't imagine it's too hard but some good info never hurts.  Maybe when I'm doing the DMr front end I can do the calipers at the same time.  I agree Kev free stuff is definitely the way to go.  I will do a brake flush once it's warm enough to be outside for longer then 5 minutes.

 

Hmm apparently SP1 has a 19mm master and SP2 has a 17mm master.  I didn't know that.

 

 

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On 1/8/2017 at 0:49 AM, Duc2V4 said:

I have not seen this kit but would be interested in seeing the instructions. Me feeling is that they are basically bypassing the linked portions by looping back the linked feeds to the main feeds with short jumper lines with dual line banjo bolts. Not sure what they are doing with the SMC. Possibly replacing the plunger with a locking piece to keep in from activating when the front brake is activated. Either way, I'd ask for an instruction and/or full parts list sheet(s) to see exactly what's involved.

 

In all honesty, I like the linked brakes or more appropriately, do not find any issues with them. Once I put the SS lines, bled the system thoroughly and added new EBC HH pads, I found the braking system to be working very well.

 

I agree with what you are saying but for the $300 difference in price vs the 10 line kit I will give it some consideration if I ever pick up another VFR w/ LBS.  Also, one of the lines which I'm guessing the delink lit does away with was a major PITA to route through the bike.

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You can remove them from the bike after draining as much fluid as you can. Don't know your tool situation, but compressed air is the best way to get the pistons out. Without a compressor, I would remove the pads before taking the calipers off, then pump the lever and rear pedal to get the pistons as far extended as possible. With the backing plate on, they shouldn't be able to come totally out. But they might just slightly, so be prepared for fluid. If not, then I would drain the fluid and take the calipers off. You can remove the back plate that is bolted on and the pistons should be out enough to pull from there. Clean them up really well, making sure the surface is smooth and free of pitting. You can replace the fluid and dust seals if you want at that point and clean the calipers and slide pins and regrease the pins, making sure the boots are intact. Replace the pistons with a little DOT4 as lube, and remount and bleed thoroughly. A vacuum bleeder is going to be your friend for that, compressor driven or hand pump.

You always see people freaking out about making sure you don't accidentally pop your pistons out by bumping the lever with the wheel off. Well, it's basically impossible to do on purpose...

Just a quick reply, as I'm about to leave for work today.

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With all of this talk of maintenance I walked over to my dinning room and took my RC51 apart, further than it already is.  I cleaned up one caliper and pistons pretty well.  Do you say I should put some DOT 4 on the pistons even though I didn't take them out of the caliper?

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8 hours ago, Epyon007 said:

With all of this talk of maintenance I walked over to my dinning room and took my RC51 apart, further than it already is.  I cleaned up one caliper and pistons pretty well.  Do you say I should put some DOT 4 on the pistons even though I didn't take them out of the caliper?

No, just to install in new or cleaned deals. 

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How long dos a set of rear pads last typicaly? I know we all use the brakes differently, I tend not to brake a lot, usually change down approaching corners and ease of the throttle instead of flying in and hammering on the brakes,

just wondered what mileage is common from a set of rear pads,I have 10k miles done on this set and they are looking a bit worn from what I can tell.

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10k on a set of bike pads is a lot I'd say.  So I wouldn't be too surprised that they needed changing.

 

Also go ahead and use your brakes, that's what they are there for.  Using the engine to slow down the bike is putting lots of unnecessary strain on the engine. Also using your brakes is a much more precise method of controlling your speed.  The idea of breaking isn't to late brake like some kind of lunatic.  Most fast riders DON'T do that.  Ease into them get yourself down to speed then let them of gently.  The more smooth you are the better everything works!!

 

MCN Cornering and braking video

 

This video gives you a basic idea of what to do.  Yes, he is talking about track day riding but the same basic principles apply on the street, except your not going so fast.  When he down shifts is he braking, not using the engine to slow down.  You should only really be down shifting primarily to speed up (sometimes some engine braking helps with slowing down in a corner as well, I do that on my SP1).  When he starts braking for the corner you can see he is VERY far from the corner entry, so no late last second braking.

 

I hope you try it :).

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The ranking may still be the same, I haven't checked lately, but at one time MCN reported the top ten mc's is certain categories.

The fifth gen came in tied for sixth place in 60mph to 0 mph braking distance at 108.something feet. Most mc mags condider

120 feet to be excellent. Properly used, (both at the same time I'm told), they are incredible. I personally have been amazed.

Using them both at the same time is supposed to cause more squat and less dive under hard braking.

I love them.

(170,000 + miles over 11 years on fifth gens) 

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The difference when using both vs just the front is amamzingly night and day.  Shocking actually.

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On 07/02/2017 at 5:12 PM, Saoirse said:

How long dos a set of rear pads last typicaly? I know we all use the brakes differently, I tend not to brake a lot, usually change down approaching corners and ease of the throttle instead of flying in and hammering on the brakes,

just wondered what mileage is common from a set of rear pads,I have 10k miles done on this set and they are looking a bit worn from what I can tell.

 

FWIW, I am at around 35,000 km (~21,500 miles) on my existing set of EBC HH pads (I replace front & rear at the same time) and they are getting close to needing replacement. I use a lot of rear brake for low speed riding so I expect to see the rear more worn than the front.

 

I'll take photos when I replace everything some time in the spring.

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On ‎2‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 3:20 PM, Saoirse said:

 

I fully support ridding in one gear when you can as it takes things out the equation.  It's a great learning tool at the track and on the street.  California Superbike school uses it and so does the track school I attended.  I still don't see that this promotes downshifter over using your brakes to slow down.  In the end you'll do what ever you think is right so ride safe!

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The info on the CBS or LBS is correct 5th gen front lever activates 4 pistons, 2 per front caliper. The left side secondary master then rotates & activates one rear piston.  The rear pedal activate 2 rear pistons & 2 front pistons via the pressure ballance valve under the rear of the tank & the delay valve on the front right fork leg, which delays the pressure increase to the front right then front left piston, this is to stop the front secondary master increasing the rear braking force immediately & to stop the front from loading up instantly when trailing the rear brake.  The system requires sufficient rear pressure before the balance valve opens & allows pressure to the front, the delay at the front keeps everything balanced. If you use the front & rear brake lever/pedal at the same time the 5th gen has impressive brakes.  The fronts on their own are quite weak, but I did like the secondary keeping the rear inline for you automatically, I'd happily have the 4-pot front brakes I have now with the same secondary master working one rear piston :)

 

On the 6th gen they simplified the system & restored the balance to closer to a normal unlinked bike. So the front lever gives you 5 of the 6 pistons at the front & the secondary master gives you one rear piston. The rear pedal gives 2 rear pistons & via the balance valve 1 front piston.

 

I tried delinking both front calipers on my 5th gen using a CBR600F4 M/C to activate all 6 front pistons & whilst the braking was better than stock front lever only, it was nowhere near as good as the 4-pot Nissins I use now, nor as good as the stock setup using the front lever & rear pedal together. I'm just not used to touching the rear brake other than for trail control or during very heavy braking, so I replaced the whole brake system front & rear to a normal setup.

 

The calipers on these bikes are quality units they are fully anodized inside & out, so very resistent to corrosion. The piston dust seals are fitted dry at the factory & this leads to crud working under them & causing drag on the pistons, plus people always fail to maintain this very dirty area of the bike. Regular cleaning with brake cleaner once a year will keep them in good order & use some silicone grease to seal the dust seals which keeps the crud & water out of their groove.  Use the proper lube for the sliding pins & rubber boots to avoid binding.

 

YMMV

 

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Thanks for the super explanation Mo.  So it sounds like to get the 6th gen brake set up, which to me is very appealing, I would really need to get the whole system it seems.  Maybe I just need to start using more rear brake.  I don't have my brain programmed to that that yet but I can learn!!  HEH

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1 hour ago, Epyon007 said:

Thanks for the super explanation Mo.  So it sounds like to get the 6th gen brake set up, which to me is very appealing, I would really need to get the would system it seems.  Maybe I just need to start using more rear brake.  I don't have my brain programmed to that that yet but I can learn!!  HEH

If you are interested in a low cost way to give this a whirl, I am parting out my 2003. When crashed (into), the braking system was working perfectly, but all parts would require cleaning and maintenance. It's ABS-based, and complete.

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If you want to swap from 5th to 6th setup, then you need a 6th gen front right caliper, the delay valve on the right fork, you can compare them using online fiche/parts pics.

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You think just those two parts?

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Mohawk is close but I think you would also need the left side caliper and lines as well. The 5 Gen setup has two lines that run across the top of the fender where as the 6 Gen only has one. Unless you plug up one of the lines on the left. This is due to the rear system triggering the two center pistons on the left and right calipers. Also not sure if the rear PCV is or acts the same but more than likely it does. The delay valve on the right side of the 5 Gen and the rear triggering the center pistons of both front calipers are the biggest differences between the two systems if I recall the two correctly.

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for those of you who have de-linked the brakes, regardless of "feel", what are your stopping distances before and after?

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On 3/21/2017 at 2:01 PM, thereisnospoon said:

for those of you who have de-linked the brakes, regardless of "feel", what are your stopping distances before and after?

I dont think anybody could give you before and after stopping distances, but what is does is allow the rider chose how much front and how much rear he wants based on the situation. (I am running RC51 SP2 gear) But remember a lot of braking stop distances and at various situations are strongly dependent on rider skill, and linked or not that will be the main factor in stopping. - I still chuckle at this but in the MCN braking testing by Lee Parks an admitted braking skill junkie, beat the VFR distance riding the Honda Valkyrie, (725 pounds!) a bike with old tech pin slider calipers and totally a standard style brake system.. I have one, and it does brake very well.... 

 

IMHO - if you have a 5th gen and want to go to 6th gen gear, unless the parts are given to you free,--- going to 6th gen gear wont gain you that much....  The same $ could have SH lowers----(954/SP2/F4i) calipers and m/c ---- 14 mm rear master cylinder for the rear. Standard style delinked sport bike brakes. Its not that hard a job.....

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+ 1 for the above comment. 

I have the RC51 brakes on mine and love them. Specially the power and feel of the front, and the independent rear brake. 

And IMO the "regardless of feel" comment has missed the point, feel is everything. 

 

But the linked system was also very good if kept in tip top shape. 

 

And yes, going from 5th to 6th is a waste of time even if you got them free. 

Its more then just the calipers you have to change for it to work, you have to replace everything. 

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After replacing a leaking secondary master cylinder on a 6th Gen and trying to bleed the system after, I'm super happy with my 3 line brakes! By that I mean one braided line per caliper. I have F4i (I believe) front calipers on my SP1 forks. Functionally identical to SP1 calipers, but not fancy gold colored, and stock rear caliper fed by one line from the F4i master and a small crossover loop on the caliper to link the three pistons. 

BTW, the secondary master is the same part on both 5th and 6th. I used the one off my '99 to replace the leaking one on an '03.

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