Member Contributer 2k1GoneWild Posted November 21, 2016 Author Member Contributer Share Posted November 21, 2016 46 minutes ago, CandyRedRC46 said: The funny thing about the black widow headers and 2k1gonewilds obsession about the o2 bungs that hes not going to use anyways, they space the o2 sensors out of the air stream (due to black widow not understanding that these are precat not post cat o2 sensors), so those o2 bungs are now rendered worthless.... Except the real question and overall question is if the headers are creating enough of a restriction to holdback any power and around here it's all based on opinion. But if you ask me from having driven around on the OEM headers, the Black Widow are not restricting exhaust flow. The reasons I say this is I test rode it several different ways and the restrictions were always downstream of the headers. Here are the 4 different ways I rode the VFR: (note each change had noticeable power increases and lower engine temp) ConFig 1 : OEM headers / Vance Hines Exhaust ConFig 2 : Black Widow / Vance Hines Exhaust Config 3 : Black Widow / Staintune Exhaust Restrictor & PC 3 fuel map Config 4 : Black Widow / Staintune Exhaust no restrictor & PC 3 fuel map Once I got to ConFig 4 acceleration is very constant to 155 mph in 6th gear @ 10,500 rpm If I thought the Black Widow headers were holding back any power I would replace them with 98/99 OEM (with Ceramic coating) but in my opinion they are not, the Black Widow is the best choice because they are Stainless Steel, (no cat and fit perfect, with no fit up stress issues to crack welds down the road) and this VFR is maxed out with all factory power available. If any of you ever rode next to this bike you would agree, but this is basically purely a discussion. I have a few more discretionary incidentals for the engine, the upgraded stator and rectifier, the engine case clutch "derby window", the gear indicator, the o2 eliminator, new Barnett Carbon Fiber Clutch plate kit, possible the pair valve disconnect. RDMOTO short levers and bar ends and a tank mount for a smart phone. This past weekend I was working on the fork cartridges and ordered new seals and bushings, but all and all this scooter is ready for DynoJet next just ! ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandyRedRC46 Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 Config 5: The actual performance headers that you have never tried. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lint Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 I just started reading this. Why, in the very beginning has no one stated the obvious of the octane boost added to each tank being a complete waste of money? Our bikes are engineered to run on 87 octane fuel and unless OP is making actual engine modifications that will increase compression and advance timing, there is no reason for additional octane. If such a need ever arose, it would cheaper to run higher octane fuel. The rest of this that I've read so far sounds like a bunch of guessing based on what sounds like it would be good without any thought as to what actually adds to the system based on engineering and thorough dyno testing. Aside from suspension and brakes, spending a ton of money on our engine through "airbox mods" exhaust etc, without any computer modeling and real life testing of air velocity based on the engine's needs at any given rpm, is just conjecture based on an opinion. All ICE engines are a system and all changes need to be done with a recognition that it is a system and it has to be treated that way. One change here will have an effect here, here and here. I'll read on, to see if any of this is taken into consideration, but you're starting with a 500+ lb motorcycle and throwing thousands of dollars at it, instead of just buying a better bike to begin with. Before you flame me, I own a 5th gen. It's a fun bike, but I have no illusions that I could buy a much better sportbike to have factory engineered performance that you're hoping to achieve through guesswork. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandyRedRC46 Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 1 minute ago, Lint said: I just started reading this. Why, in the very beginning has no one stated the obvious of the octane boost added to each tank being a complete waste of money? Our bikes are engineered to run on 87 octane fuel and unless OP is making actual engine modifications that will increase compression and advance timing, there is no reason for additional octane. If such a need ever arose, it would cheaper to run higher octane fuel. The rest of this that I've read so far sounds like a bunch of guessing based on what sounds like it would be good without any thought as to what actually adds to the system based on engineering and thorough dyno testing. Aside from suspension and brakes, spending a ton of money on our engine through "airbox mods" without any computer modeling and real life testing of air velocity based on the engine's needs at any given rpm, is just conjecture based on an opinion. All ICE engines are a system and all changes need to be done with a recognition that it is a system and it has to be treated that way. One change here will have an effect here, here and here. I'll read on, to see if any of this is taken into consideration, but you're starting with a 500+ lb motorcycle and throwing thousands of dollars at it, interest of just buying a better bike to begin with. Before you flame me, I own a 5th gen. It's a fun bike, but I have no illusions that I could buy a much better sportbike to have factory engineered performance that you're hoping to achieve through guesswork. I brought it up and OP said to combat bad gas. I told him that the VFR's were engineered from the factory to run on bad gas and then he ignored it like he ignored the other 55 million factors that were spoon fed to him.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lint Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 The end result of what you're trying to achieve can be had by losing weight and going to YCRS or another REPUTABLE track day organization and becoming a better rider. But alas, I'm basically talking to SOW, so I'm wasting my breath. Put nitrous on it, blow it up, then move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandyRedRC46 Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 3 hours ago, 2k1GoneWild said: Except the real question and overall question is if the headers are creating enough of a restriction to holdback any power and around here it's all based on opinion. But if you ask me from having driven around on the OEM headers, the Black Widow are not restricting exhaust flow. The reasons I say this is I test rode it several different ways and the restrictions were always downstream of the headers. Here are the 4 different ways I rode the VFR: (note each change had noticeable power increases and lower engine temp) ConFig 1 : OEM headers / Vance Hines Exhaust ConFig 2 : Black Widow / Vance Hines Exhaust Config 3 : Black Widow / Staintune Exhaust Restrictor & PC 3 fuel map Config 4 : Black Widow / Staintune Exhaust no restrictor & PC 3 fuel map Once I got to ConFig 4 acceleration is very constant to 155 mph in 6th gear @ 10,500 rpm If I thought the Black Widow headers were holding back any power I would replace them with 98/99 OEM (with Ceramic coating) but in my opinion they are not, the Black Widow is the best choice because they are Stainless Steel, (no cat and fit perfect, with no fit up stress issues to crack welds down the road) and this VFR is maxed out with all factory power available. If any of you ever rode next to this bike you would agree, but this is basically purely a discussion. I have a few more discretionary incidentals for the engine, the upgraded stator and rectifier, the engine case clutch "derby window", the gear indicator, the o2 eliminator, new Barnett Carbon Fiber Clutch plate kit, possible the pair valve disconnect. RDMOTO short levers and bar ends and a tank mount for a smart phone. This past weekend I was working on the fork cartridges and ordered new seals and bushings, but all and all this scooter is ready for DynoJet next just ! ? For the millionth time, this is all the power that every Black widow, Delkevic, Motad, 98/99 copy and 98/99 factory header is holding back. Everything you have said has been based on opinion. You have never Dyno'd anything, while others have posted Dynos. This is proof of how much restriction 31mm exhaust primaries have compared to proper 35mm inner diameter exhaust primaries. Also if I ever rode next to you, I would blow your bike off of the road :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lint Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 OP, I've got three tracks within one to four hours from my home. I'm surrounded by canyons as well. Please come out here and let's put your money where your mouth is. Lets find out if your thousands of dollars you supposedly have spent makes any difference in the real world against my bone stock 99 that I bought for $1900. I even run sport touring tires on it, Bridgestone T30 Evo. Let's find out what your bike can do. That right there will settle this debate once and for all. Put up, or shut up. Simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer 3dcycle Posted November 21, 2016 Member Contributer Share Posted November 21, 2016 oh yea well I am getting a sebspeed clutch cover mod and doing the titanium clutch washer mod, there will be no holding me back now.. don't know why he thinks a thurn clutch cover mod is worth mentioning. why not support the forum and seb, buy local ish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lint Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 23 minutes ago, 3dcycle said: oh yea well I am getting a sebspeed clutch cover mod and doing the titanium clutch washer mod, there will be no holding me back now.. don't know why he thinks a thurn clutch cover mod is worth mentioning. why not support the forum and seb, buy local ish. My buddy had that done by Seb, incredible quality. Why go to some unaffiliated company. I looked at the Thurn website and they are selling Chinese blinker mirrors. What a joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandyRedRC46 Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 It's so funny he keeps mentioning supporting local shops this and that (referring to black widow exhausts that is made in the UK), but all the stuff he is buying is from Germany/UK/Australia etc.... LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer thtanner Posted November 21, 2016 Member Contributer Share Posted November 21, 2016 If we ignore it, it will go away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Dutchy Posted November 21, 2016 Member Contributer Share Posted November 21, 2016 1 hour ago, Lint said: My buddy had that done by Seb, incredible quality. Why go to some unaffiliated company. I looked at the Thurn website and they are selling Chinese blinker mirrors. What a joke. Seb did my clutch cover, but having seen Thurn's and knowing the care he puts in running his business (as does Seb), Gerhard Thurn is not a joke. Seb welds, Gerhard glues... Before sourcing/offering goods made in China, he will verify 1st and only then sell. Still no dyno graph here? I dug out some late 90 mags, found some charts (as reference) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandyRedRC46 Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 Looking at Black Widow's (AKA Sandy Bike Spare's) web site, They state " Our Research & Development Team are based in the UK", which sounds an awful lot like, "We designed it here in the UK and have it manufactured in china". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Skids Posted November 21, 2016 Member Contributer Share Posted November 21, 2016 They're only a few miles from me and I pass close by them on the way to/from work. I could pop in and ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandyRedRC46 Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 42 minutes ago, Dutchy said: Seb did my clutch cover, but having seen Thurn's and knowing the care he puts in running his business (as does Seb), Gerhard Thurn is not a joke. Seb welds, Gerhard glues... Before sourcing/offering goods made in China, he will verify 1st and only then sell. Still no dyno graph here? I dug out some late 90 mags, found some charts (as reference) So those dyno's are of what, a 1998 VFR800, on a Dynojet dyno, with the magical German ECU? lol Did I see a K&N Filters on there too or are they just the owners of the dyno? Looks to be putting down 96-98 whp, which is right in line with most stock VFR800's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer 3dcycle Posted November 21, 2016 Member Contributer Share Posted November 21, 2016 I was not knock thurn at all, but he emphasis buying local then buys from oversees. I in fact will be ordering a few parts from thurn for my newly acquired 750 thanks to you dutchy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskan Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 Some mornings I wish I could unleash my factory power too . . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer 2k1GoneWild Posted November 21, 2016 Author Member Contributer Share Posted November 21, 2016 2 hours ago, Lint said: My buddy had that done by Seb, incredible quality. Why go to some unaffiliated company. I looked at the Thurn website and they are selling Chinese blinker mirrors. What a joke. Thurn Motosports is very simple and efficient to do busnisss with and have a variety of high quality products and services Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandyRedRC46 Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 8 minutes ago, 2k1GoneWild said: Thurn Motosports is very simple and efficient to do busnisss with and have a variety of high quality products and services What happened to supporting local companies like Seb Speed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandyRedRC46 Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 Back in 2009 when I did my ebay header (Motad), two brothers slip on, bmc filter, modded air box, power commander 3 and custom "Dynojet" tune. Went from 98.64 with a canned power commander tune, to 100.93 whp with a custom tune. This is comparing a stock 2007 VFR800 to my modded VFR800 in 2009. This is a typical stock VFR800 reading. Maybe a tad on the lowside. Here is another, stock VFR800 (2002) on a slightly higher reading dyno. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer 2k1GoneWild Posted November 21, 2016 Author Member Contributer Share Posted November 21, 2016 1 hour ago, CandyRedRC46 said: It's so funny he keeps mentioning supporting local shops this and that (referring to black widow exhausts that is made in the UK), but all the stuff he is buying is from Germany/UK/Australia etc.... LOL USA-$2200.- (DMr Suspension $1200, Corbin Seat $500-, PC lll $300-, Barnett Carbon Clutch kit $200-, K&N $50-) Australia $500- Staintune High Level UK- $500- Black Widow Downpipes Germany $580- (Stator $170- Rectifier $160 Derby Cover $250) Czech Republic $300 (RDMOTO Short levers and Bar Ends) Hungary $60 (TankMount SmartPhine holder) There's a few odds and ends but mostly spent in USA and went oversees because item was not obtainable here.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer 2k1GoneWild Posted November 21, 2016 Author Member Contributer Share Posted November 21, 2016 6 minutes ago, CandyRedRC46 said: Back in 2009 when I did my ebay header (Motad), two brothers slip on, bmc filter, modded air box, power commander 3 and custom "Dynojet" tune. Euro ECU Germany, Second Snorkel airbox with K&N, Black Widow catless headers. Staintune high level PC lll with euro fuel mapping, I'm thinking it will bring in better numbers ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandyRedRC46 Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 When something is unobtainable, but you don't want to settle for ebay brand headers or search for rocking horse poo:http://vfrworld.com/forums/showthread.php/42497-Scratch-built-exhaust Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandyRedRC46 Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 Just now, 2k1GoneWild said: Euro ECU Germany, Second Snorkel airbox with K&N, Black Widow catless headers. Staintune high level PC lll with euro fuel mapping, I'm thinking it will bring in better numbers ? I am thinking that on the same dyno and conditions, it would bring in lower, but who knows, maybe you will get lucky and find a high reading dyno. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandyRedRC46 Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 Two Brothers Headers (USA) $800 Two Brothers Slip on (USA) $600 Ceramic coating (USA) $160 Sold extra two brothers can -$100 Before/After ceramic coating and USD forks/Radial brakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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