Unleashing 5th Gen Factory Power + DMr + Thurn MS

[mello dude]

One of these may be helpful......

 

[2k1GoneWild]

40 minutes ago, CandyRedRC46 said:

 

Lol wow don't get too scientific there. Not like an actual afr or hp matters at all lol. I really need to stop entertaining this thread.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
 

 

That's fine, so once the Dyno Results get posted then you'll be fine, but remember don't forget what I knew before the Dyno ?

[2k1GoneWild]

6 minutes ago, mello dude said:

One of these may be helpful......

 

Of course, it's totally understandable ?

[VFR4Lee]

Wow.

 

 

[Duc2V4]

About the only thing that makes this thread credible is the DMr stuff!

[boOZZIE]

Can we all stop replying until video proof of dyno run is posted pleeeease.....

[2k1GoneWild]

58 minutes ago, Duc2V4 said:

About the only thing that makes this thread credible is the DMr stuff!

I installed the $1100- DMr shock and the fork kit and really felt a huge difference, Jamie has it all figured out ?

[Cogswell]

46 minutes ago, boOZZIE said:

Can we all stop replying until video proof of dyno run is posted pleeeease.....

 

I'm going to start an oil thread to take everyone's minds off of it  . . .

[2k1GoneWild]

54 minutes ago, Cogswell said:

 

I'm going to start an oil thread to take everyone's minds off of it  . . .

Amsoil ?

[2k1GoneWild]

1 hour ago, boOZZIE said:

Can we all stop replying until video proof of dyno run is posted pleeeease.....

Next videos will be 0-155 mph waiting for tank mount for smart phone to get here from Hungary DynoJet will be at very end (during colder weather when I can't ride willl for it off for a week for testing and custom fuel mapping) ?

[Mohawk]

This is will the funniest thread in ages, gotta keep it running, just to wind CR46 up :)

 

I actually have a proper ram air setup, but can't document its effect other than to say at a true 155mph the bike was still accelerating hard.

The stock air intake location provides NO boost to intake flow & with no seal u dear the tank means even if you directed air correctly, the effect woul be lost to the low pressure areas behind the tank.

[2k1GoneWild]

3 hours ago, Mohawk said:

This is will the funniest thread in ages, gotta keep it running, just to wind CR46 up :)

 

I actually have a proper ram air setup, but can't document its effect other than to say at a true 155mph the bike was still accelerating hard.

The stock air intake location provides NO boost to intake flow & with no seal u dear the tank means even if you directed air correctly, the effect woul be lost to the low pressure areas behind the tank.

The airbox either has positive or negative pressure (pick one) By adding the second snorkel, the purpose here is there will not be any negative pressure. The purpose of "Ram-air" would be creating increase of positive pressure being as speed increases. But there are other issues trying to accomplish this and then if you actually did the AFR needs to be in proper ratio. If you ask me the only truly effective change to the airbox and filter is to make sure there is ample free air flow and no negative air pressure. Changing the intake velocity stacks is not necessary, purely a placebo effect ?

[Mohawk]

Keep dreaming sucker

[JZH]

13 hours ago, 2k1GoneWild said:

Remember I "reversed engineered"  this entire tune, I started at PoweCommander to see what fuel maps were available and noticed they had "Euro" fuel maps, with full exhaust systems after market air filter and o2 eliminator, so that's why I got ECU G from Germany.  

Here is the link maybe if you go look you'll understand better ?  

 

European model, Laser Duotech open slip on, no insert, Stock or aftermarket air filter, O2 eliminators installed
http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander/powercommander_maps_installs_product_buy_options.aspx?mdlyrid=106-411&make=19&model=204&make-n=Honda&model-n=VFR 800&year=2001&mk=19&mdl=204&yr=836

 

To be completely accurate, this DynoJet map title is misleading, because there has never been a single "European model" 5th gen VFR.  As I have pointed out, there have been several different PGM-FI units used in Europe, and sometimes there has been a separate one for Germany/Switzerland and sometimes not.  The reason why there may have been a '98-'99 European DynoJet map which refers to O2 eliminators is because '98-'99 German and Swiss bikes indeed had catalyst exhausts with O2 sensors and PGM-FI units to go with such differences.  So, it is unfortunately not quite as simple as "pre-2000, no O2 sensors; 2000-on, O2 sensors".  The following data covers all of the 5th gen models known to exist:

 

                               W  X  Y  1

38770-MBG-003    1   1            E, ED, F, ND, U, YB, YD, YE, YG, YH

38770-MBG-610    1                 G

38770-MBG-630    1                 SW

38770-MBG-671    1   1            CM, A

38770-MBG-611         1            G, YC

38770-MBG-631         1            SW, YF

38770-MBG-700    1   ?   ?   ?  J

38770-MBG-701    ?   ?   ?   ?  J

38770-MBG-771    1   1            AC

38770-MBG-A01              1   1  CM, U, A

38770-MBG-D01              1   1  DE, E, ED, F

38770-MBG-L01               1   1  AC

 

Codes: E = England, ED = European direct sales, F = France, ND = North Europe, U = Australia, YB = England (etc., these were the "Anniversary" versions from 1999), G = Germany, SW = Switzerland, CM = Canada, A = US 49-state, AC = California, J = Japan, DE = Denmark.

 

As for exhausts, all Canadian, English, ED, French, North Europe, Australian, 49-state and California '98-'99 bikes had the same exhaust system (without O2 sensors).  All German and Swiss '98-'99 bikes had a different exhaust system (with O2 sensors).  For '00-'01, the Canadian, ED and US bikes had the same exhaust system (with O2 sensors), but this was not the same part number as the German and Swiss '98-'99 system.  (And remember, there were no separate German or Swiss models in '00-'01, so bikes sold in those countries would have been ED, too.)  For '00, the Australian, Danish, English and French bikes used the same exhaust as the Canadian and ED bikes (with an O2-sensor) until a certain chassis number, when they got an exhaust with a different part number (and they then used that exhaust through '01).  I don't have a Japanese Parts Catalogue, so I don't know if there was another part number for the Japanese bikes.

 

The Snorkel was the same for all markets during '98-'99, and a different part number was used in all markets during '00-'01.

The Air Funnels insode the airbox were the same in all markets during '98-'00, but a change was made mid-'01 in some markets (Australia, Denmark, England, ED and France).

Camshafts worldwide were exactly the same during '98-'00, except that there were different part numbers for California models (only) during '98-'99.  (I found this uniformity quite surprising.)

Fuel injectors worldwide were exactly the same during '98-'00.

Throttle bodies worldwide were exactly the same during '98-'99, except that there were different part numbers for California models (only) during '98-'99.

Throttle bodies worldwide were exactly the same during '00-'01, except that there were different part numbers for California models (only) during '00-'01.

There were certainly other part number differences, but those are all of the power-related ones I can think of.  Enjoy.

 

Ciao,

[2k1GoneWild]

26 minutes ago, JZH said:

 

To be completely accurate, this DynoJet map title is misleading, because there has never been a single "European model" 5th gen VFR.  As I have pointed out, there have been several different PGM-FI units used in Europe, and sometimes there has been a separate one for Germany/Switzerland and sometimes not.  The reason why there may have been a '98-'99 European DynoJet map which refers to O2 eliminators is because '98-'99 German and Swiss bikes indeed had catalyst exhausts with O2 sensors and PGM-FI units to go with such differences.  So, it is unfortunately not quite as simple as "pre-2000, no O2 sensors; 2000-on, O2 sensors".  The following data covers all of the 5th gen models known to exist:

 

                               W  X  Y  1

38770-MBG-003    1   1            E, ED, F, ND, U, YB, YD, YE, YG, YH

38770-MBG-610    1                 G

38770-MBG-630    1                 SW

38770-MBG-671    1   1            CM, A

38770-MBG-611         1            G, YC

38770-MBG-631         1            SW, YF

38770-MBG-700    1   ?   ?   ?  J

38770-MBG-701    ?   ?   ?   ?  J

38770-MBG-771    1   1            AC

38770-MBG-A01              1   1  CM, U, A

38770-MBG-D01              1   1  DE, E, ED, F

38770-MBG-L01               1   1  AC

 

Codes: E = England, ED = European direct sales, F = France, ND = North Europe, U = Australia, YB = England (etc., these were the "Anniversary" versions from 1999), G = Germany, SW = Switzerland, CM = Canada, A = US 49-state, AC = California, J = Japan, DE = Denmark.

 

As for exhausts, all Canadian, English, ED, French, North Europe, Australian, 49-state and California '98-'99 bikes had the same exhaust system (without O2 sensors).  All German and Swiss '98-'99 bikes had a different exhaust system (with O2 sensors).  For '00-'01, the Canadian, ED and US bikes had the same exhaust system (with O2 sensors), but this was not the same part number as the German and Swiss '98-'99 system.  (And remember, there were no separate German or Swiss models in '00-'01, so bikes sold in those countries would have been ED, too.)  For '00, the Australian, Danish, English and French bikes used the same exhaust as the Canadian and ED bikes (with an O2-sensor) until a certain chassis number, when they got an exhaust with a different part number (and they then used that exhaust through '01).  I don't have a Japanese Parts Catalogue, so I don't know if there was another part number for the Japanese bikes.

 

The Snorkel was the same for all markets during '98-'99, and a different part number was used in all markets during '00-'01.

The Air Funnels insode the airbox were the same in all markets during '98-'00, but a change was made mid-'01 in some markets (Australia, Denmark, England, ED and France).

Camshafts worldwide were exactly the same during '98-'00, except that there were different part numbers for California models (only) during '98-'99.  (I found this uniformity quite surprising.)

Fuel injectors worldwide were exactly the same during '98-'00.

Throttle bodies worldwide were exactly the same during '98-'99, except that there were different part numbers for California models (only) during '98-'99.

Throttle bodies worldwide were exactly the same during '00-'01, except that there were different part numbers for California models (only) during '00-'01.

There were certainly other part number differences, but those are all of the power-related ones I can think of.  Enjoy.

 

Ciao,

That's very interesting indeed ! Here are a few remarks : 

1) Please post picture or diagram  of 98 snorkel  

2) Please post picture or diagram of a fuel injector

3) what about the 2 way valve ? Will it be disabled with ECU G ? 

4) what was cam part number for 2001 ?

5) what was the change for the air funnels ? (aka velocity stacks)

6) Germany had o2 sensors in exhaust in 98 ( so, I do need the o2 eliminator) 

 

 

[2k1GoneWild]

1 hour ago, JZH said:

 

To be completely accurate, this DynoJet map title is misleading, because there has never been a single "European model" 5th gen VFR.  As I have pointed out, there have been several different PGM-FI units used in Europe, and sometimes there has been a separate one for Germany/Switzerland and sometimes not.  The reason why there may have been a '98-'99 European DynoJet map which refers to O2 eliminators is because '98-'99 German and Swiss bikes indeed had catalyst exhausts with O2 sensors and PGM-FI units to go with such differences.  So, it is unfortunately not quite as simple as "pre-2000, no O2 sensors; 2000-on, O2 sensors".  The following data covers all of the 5th gen models known to exist:

 

                               W  X  Y  1

38770-MBG-003    1   1            E, ED, F, ND, U, YB, YD, YE, YG, YH

38770-MBG-610    1                 G

38770-MBG-630    1                 SW

38770-MBG-671    1   1            CM, A

38770-MBG-611         1            G, YC

38770-MBG-631         1            SW, YF

38770-MBG-700    1   ?   ?   ?  J

38770-MBG-701    ?   ?   ?   ?  J

38770-MBG-771    1   1            AC

38770-MBG-A01              1   1  CM, U, A

38770-MBG-D01              1   1  DE, E, ED, F

38770-MBG-L01               1   1  AC

 

Codes: E = England, ED = European direct sales, F = France, ND = North Europe, U = Australia, YB = England (etc., these were the "Anniversary" versions from 1999), G = Germany, SW = Switzerland, CM = Canada, A = US 49-state, AC = California, J = Japan, DE = Denmark.

 

As for exhausts, all Canadian, English, ED, French, North Europe, Australian, 49-state and California '98-'99 bikes had the same exhaust system (without O2 sensors).  All German and Swiss '98-'99 bikes had a different exhaust system (with O2 sensors).  For '00-'01, the Canadian, ED and US bikes had the same exhaust system (with O2 sensors), but this was not the same part number as the German and Swiss '98-'99 system.  (And remember, there were no separate German or Swiss models in '00-'01, so bikes sold in those countries would have been ED, too.)  For '00, the Australian, Danish, English and French bikes used the same exhaust as the Canadian and ED bikes (with an O2-sensor) until a certain chassis number, when they got an exhaust with a different part number (and they then used that exhaust through '01).  I don't have a Japanese Parts Catalogue, so I don't know if there was another part number for the Japanese bikes.

 

The Snorkel was the same for all markets during '98-'99, and a different part number was used in all markets during '00-'01.

The Air Funnels insode the airbox were the same in all markets during '98-'00, but a change was made mid-'01 in some markets (Australia, Denmark, England, ED and France).

Camshafts worldwide were exactly the same during '98-'00, except that there were different part numbers for California models (only) during '98-'99.  (I found this uniformity quite surprising.)

Fuel injectors worldwide were exactly the same during '98-'00.

Throttle bodies worldwide were exactly the same during '98-'99, except that there were different part numbers for California models (only) during '98-'99.

Throttle bodies worldwide were exactly the same during '00-'01, except that there were different part numbers for California models (only) during '00-'01.

There were certainly other part number differences, but those are all of the power-related ones I can think of.  Enjoy.

 

Ciao,

Although it would appear that by analyzing the part numbers there are indeed differences and some differences are quite apparent, but regarding the functionalities of the ECU programming in conjunction with the fuel mapping variables, there might not necessarily be differences, that's why to do this type of effort the only way to find out is to "try and drive" to the full extent possible and then at that point attempt to validate findings on the Dyno and if this proves to be the winning receipe to unleash all the factory power, essentially and effectively what we have here is a "post -production hybrid factory build" ?

[CandyRedRC46]

Oh wow, so this highly elusive race German ECU was used on a bike with the restrictive catted header? lol must be super aggressive 

On the plus side, looks like you need those o2 eliminators after all...

[2k1GoneWild]

55 minutes ago, CandyRedRC46 said:

Oh wow, so this highly elusive race German ECU was used on a bike with the restrictive catted header? lol must be super aggressive 

On the plus side, looks like you need those o2 eliminators after all...

What you'll find "typically" is Euro versions produce 20% more power and much of this can only be determined by "try and drive" tuning, so buying the ECU G was already a $130- risk but I can tell you it's a huge difference over ECU A, plus Power Commander has all the Euro fuel maps ?

[CandyRedRC46]

Where is the asshat emoticon? 

[Nelix]

There is a member called Wild

With the brains of a 3 year old child

A butt dyno so sensitive he claims

It can  measure his non existent gains

It's time this twat was exiled.

 

 

[Egg on Leggs]

19 minutes ago, Nelix said:

There is a member called Wild

With the brains of a 3 year old child

A butt dyno so sensitive he claims

It can  measure his non existent gains

It's time this twat was exiled.

 

 

I am enjoying this intellectual game of Top Trumps. 

[Blazerdman]

Is there a way I can filter this thread out of my feed?

[JZH]

9 hours ago, 2k1GoneWild said:

That's very interesting indeed ! Here are a few remarks : 

1) Please post picture or diagram  of 98 snorkel  

2) Please post picture or diagram of a fuel injector

3) what about the 2 way valve ? Will it be disabled with ECU G ? 

4) what was cam part number for 2001 ?

5) what was the change for the air funnels ? (aka velocity stacks)

6) Germany had o2 sensors in exhaust in 98 ( so, I do need the o2 eliminator)

 

The diagrams in the Parts Catalog do not show any differences in the snorkels or the fuel injectors.  You would have to have parts in hand to see what's changed.  There are plenty of pics online of the injectors, such as this one (pn. 06164-PCA-000):

 

 

Do you mean the flapper valve in the air cleaner housing?  The US bikes all used pn. 17221-MBG-D00, which all non-US bikes also used in '00-'01 (in '98-'99 all non-US models used a different pn, 17221-MBG-000).  Note that when I say "non-US", that includes Canada, so Canadian bikes should be the same spec as the European bikes unless otherwise mentioned.  Arguably, the '98 German PGM-FI would have been designed to use the non-US/Canadian '98-'99 air box, but I don't know what was different about it.  (The Parts Catalog diagram doesn't show any differences.)

 

There were four different cam part numbers, one each for the front intake, rear intake, front exhaust and rear exhaust (14110-MBG-000, 14120-MBG-000, 14130-MBG-000 and 14140-MBG-000, respectively).  As mentioned before, the cams were the same for all years and all markets (except for California in '98-'99).

 

I don't know what the differences in the funnels were, but it is interesting that in the USA, the '98-'99 and '01 funnels were the same, but the '00 funnels were not.  Oddly, the '00 US funnels were the same pn as the 6th-gen funnels!  (As mentioned before, some, but not all, of the non-US bikes switched to the 6th-gen funnels sometime during 2001.)  Perhaps the differences were like those shown by our Russky brothers in relation to the 6th gen?

 

Testing your theory about the '98-'99 German PGM-FI units being "full power" would be exceedingly simple--a matter of back-to-back dyno runs with the different ECUs plugged in--but I have seen no evidence to suggest your theory is correct.  All of the non-dyno evidence suggests a mixed bag, or even less power, due to the catalyst system.  Perhaps we shall see...

 

Ciao,

[2k1GoneWild]

1 hour ago, JZH said:

 

The diagrams in the Parts Catalog do not show any differences in the snorkels or the fuel injectors.  You would have to have parts in hand to see what's changed.  There are plenty of pics online of the injectors, such as this one (pn. 06164-PCA-000):

 

 

Do you mean the flapper valve in the air cleaner housing?  The US bikes all used pn. 17221-MBG-D00, which all non-US bikes also used in '00-'01 (in '98-'99 all non-US models used a different pn, 17221-MBG-000).  Note that when I say "non-US", that includes Canada, so Canadian bikes should be the same spec as the European bikes unless otherwise mentioned.  Arguably, the '98 German PGM-FI would have been designed to use the non-US/Canadian '98-'99 air box, but I don't know what was different about it.  (The Parts Catalog diagram doesn't show any differences.)

 

There were four different cam part numbers, one each for the front intake, rear intake, front exhaust and rear exhaust (14110-MBG-000, 14120-MBG-000, 14130-MBG-000 and 14140-MBG-000, respectively).  As mentioned before, the cams were the same for all years and all markets (except for California in '98-'99).

 

I don't know what the differences in the funnels were, but it is interesting that in the USA, the '98-'99 and '01 funnels were the same, but the '00 funnels were not.  Oddly, the '00 US funnels were the same pn as the 6th-gen funnels!  (As mentioned before, some, but not all, of the non-US bikes switched to the 6th-gen funnels sometime during 2001.)  Perhaps the differences were like those shown by our Russky brothers in relation to the 6th gen?

 

Testing your theory about the '98-'99 German PGM-FI units being "full power" would be exceedingly simple--a matter of back-to-back dyno runs with the different ECUs plugged in--but I have seen no evidence to suggest your theory is correct.  All of the non-dyno evidence suggests a mixed bag, or even less power, due to the catalyst system.  Perhaps we shall see...

 

Ciao,

Good job you are without a doubt the VFR parts "world authority"  one thing to keep in mind is a part number change could be a different (new) supplier of the same part ? (Might no be any different) Also the factory never made a "dual snorkel" airbox ?  so yes, when I get the custom DynoJet fuel mapping what I can do at the end is do a final pull but switch the ECU and find out once and for all if the ECU G has more power than the ECU A ? But don't forget why does Power Commander has Euro fuel maps?  which would make this one of the most valuable tuning threads of "all time" ? 

[Dustin]

I'm out: