jsjamboree Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 Reaching out again on these issues, hopefully some new insight might be available. I've had the bike about 2 years, and these two issues have occurred since I got it. 1) Its had a studdering (misfire maybe) issue below 2500 rpm, if its under load or not. Once it gets above 2500 it takes off like a bat outta hell, its not a gradually better the higher up kinda thing. 2) This one doesn't happen every time but fairly often. While riding, if you pull the clutch in the RPMs will drop to about 4k RPM but stick. The only way get it to come down is to blip the clutch again and it'll fall. Bike: 2002 VFR Flapper removed snorkel removed Power Commander O2 Sensor mod Leo Vince Exhaust Current Troubleshooting steps: Replaced spark plugs Ran a few tanks of fuel treatment Tried base maps from power commander, the Cozye map Played with the fueling up and down from the Cozye map up to +5 and -5 in increments (didn't notice any difference) Removed the powercommander and O2 sensor deletes, back to stock CPU Spoke with a PC tuning center, and they didn't feel that a new map would have any effect on these issues. Does not return any fuel injection error codes I dont have the flapper/snorkel to put back on, they were removed prior to my ownership. I really don't have any other ideas, help would be greatly appreciated. (cross posted on VFRWorld) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer gmtech94 Posted February 24, 2016 Member Contributer Share Posted February 24, 2016 I would take out the injectors and get them cleaned ,also look at the spark plugs individually and see if a coil is not firing right . Also check all the grounds and pay close attention to what is working as this happens . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Terry Posted February 24, 2016 Member Contributer Share Posted February 24, 2016 My first suggestion would be to do a starter valve synchronisation, that certainly affects the low RPM running on these engines. The V4 doesn't really run the smoothest at very low rpms, if you've come off an inline-4 the low rpm they do feel quite shuddery even when running well. As for the rpm hanging up, AFAIK there's nothing in the FI system that would cause that, so I'd suggest you look at the throttle cables and make sure they are properly lubed and adjusted. I'd also check out the vacuum lines and look for any holes/pinches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsjamboree Posted February 26, 2016 Author Share Posted February 26, 2016 Thanks guys, I'll try to start giving these a try. Can dealers generally test injectors? 1) sync the idle valves 2) pull the injectors and have them checked 3) pull the plugs and ensure they all look the same (verify coils packs) 4) check around for vacuum lines and make sure they are all good There is something wrong with my idle adjuster as I cant adjust it. Its like its stuck, so maybe something is pinched in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandyRedRC46 Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 Check the main fuse. I had these exact symptoms when my main fuse failed. Also double check the big blue and big grey connection, orange ground block and the stator-rr connection for good measure while you're at it. https://precisionautoinjectors.com/ ^^^^^^^ This company tested, rebuilt and ultrasonic cleaned my injectors. They were a pleasure to work with and got them to with in less than 1% variance of each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 2) This one doesn't happen every time but fairly often. While riding, if you pull the clutch in the RPMs will drop to about 4k RPM but stick. The only way get it to come down is to blip the clutch again and it'll fall. Blip the clutch? Making sure you meant clutch not throttle? Maybe the clutch safety switch? It has some effect on fueling. You mentioned stuttering or misfire, are you hearing noises? I think it has a part in activating the flapper valve in the intake. Along the lines of CR's suggestions, I wonder if a bad clutch switch can cause potential buildup, and tapping it multiple times discharges it. That would have the same effect as a bad ground (meaning whatever random problem results.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandyRedRC46 Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 Faulty neutral switch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Switchblade Posted February 27, 2016 Member Contributer Share Posted February 27, 2016 Faulty neutral switch? Or bad bank angle sensor ? You gotta wonder if both problems are cause by the same faulty component ... Also check all of the connections, look at the ECU, I remember a couple members finding bad wire connections at the ECU. By-pass devise for BAS . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsjamboree Posted March 3, 2016 Author Share Posted March 3, 2016 2) This one doesn't happen every time but fairly often. While riding, if you pull the clutch in the RPMs will drop to about 4k RPM but stick. The only way get it to come down is to blip the clutch again and it'll fall. Blip the clutch? Making sure you meant clutch not throttle? Maybe the clutch safety switch? It has some effect on fueling. You mentioned stuttering or misfire, are you hearing noises? I think it has a part in activating the flapper valve in the intake. Along the lines of CR's suggestions, I wonder if a bad clutch switch can cause potential buildup, and tapping it multiple times discharges it. That would have the same effect as a bad ground (meaning whatever random problem results.) I meant the clutch, the RMPs just 'stick' at about 4k. If I let out on the clutch just a tiny bit, which causes the RPMs to drop when the clutch starts to engage, then it'll continue down to normal idle. When stuttering, it just seems like its not getting something, gasping for air or fuel or something. I dont hear any extra noises. The flapper and everything about it has been removed. PO really gutted all of that out of it. I had concerns that maybe removing all that could have caused some issue, due to the extreme nature of its removal. Last spring the main fuse got all corroded and the bike wouldn't start. So I cleaned it up the connection and replaced the fuse at that point (my issues happened prior and after). I havent gone over the 'big grey connection, orange ground block, stator-rr connection or ECU connections. While I have it all apart i'll try to find and check all of those as well. Is the BAR suppose to kill the motor on a crash? According to your chart, it looks like it would likely cause issues all over not just at low RPMs. My woods bike is in about 100 pieces in the garage so as soon as i can get most of it back together the VFR gets on the chopping block. Havent been able to start messing with it yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsjamboree Posted March 10, 2016 Author Share Posted March 10, 2016 What do you guys think about valves being out of adjustment? Ive heard of similar issues happening. Its got 40k on the clock, I bought it at 32k and I have no idea if they were ever checked before that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 Valves that are worn, and probably far off of spec can result in difficult starts, particularly when hot, backfire, noisy valvetrain, loss of power throughout range, and poor fuel economy. Have you tried to run your VIN at a Honda dealer to see if they have any records? Doing a valve inspection is a good idea at 40,000 miles if you do not know if it was ever done. You mentioned that the idle screw is stuck? Is the wax idle unit working, aka warming the bike then dropping the idle back to 1200? When you get in there, before tuning the starter valves see if they are moving smoothly. They could be sticking requiring some cleaning and lubrication. If they are adding excess air, that might cause a lean condition and cause several of the given symptoms. We always hope the simplest (and cheapest solution) is the right one. Aka something that normally controls fuel/spark is just not working right, versus the possibility that valves have begun to grind in bad ways. This also seems more likely on a Honda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsjamboree Posted March 10, 2016 Author Share Posted March 10, 2016 You mentioned that the idle screw is stuck? Is the wax idle unit working, aka warming the bike then dropping the idle back to 1200? When you get in there, before tuning the starter valves see if they are moving smoothly. They could be sticking requiring some cleaning and lubrication. If they are adding excess air, that might cause a lean condition and cause several of the given symptoms. Is your ask if it has a higher idle during warmup, then drop once its warm? Im going to say yes, but honestly I cant say 100% sure. Not something that I pay a bunch of attention to. Its generally hard to start when cold (will die 1 or 2 times before it stays running). Wont run until its warmed unless I keep the RPMs up, I attributed some of this to the flapper, par, o2 mods. I'll start it up this evening and ensure that it is working correctly. Both dealers I spoke to said it wounded like a valve issue, but I also know thats a big job with $$ in it for them. I had to pull more of the woods bike apart, so its taking longer than I originally expected. Hope to start being able to rip into the VFR and start trying some of the cheep/free things soon. Its obviously not that useful, but I turned my phone video on and pointed my holder at the tach and captured the 4k RPM issue. In the video I pull the clutch in and come to a stop. Once im stopped I let out on the clutch just a little to pull the rpm down and then you can see it fall. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHOMJ_nH36E Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Posted March 10, 2016 Share Posted March 10, 2016 It is silly for them to suggest a valve issue right off the bat, until everything this crowd listed above was already tuned. So do not take the valve suggestion to heart. The starter valves determine the air input at startup. That is the first thing the dealers should have said. What they thought when they responded to you was, "Hrm, I think this sucker will go for an $800 repair." Some of the equipment you mentioned has zero effect on performance whatsoever, unless it was done improperly, or vacuum hoses were left loose, etc. The PAIR valve puts extra air into the exhaust to burn off excess gas, which is otherwise needed for a cold start. I suspect that the air box flapper is to reduce the intake noise level at idle. So as you dive in to the suggestions above, just think in terms of the basic necessities first: electricity, fuel, air, spark. ==>That is how the dealer should be thinking. (At work I cannot get youtube so no comment on the video.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antics72 Posted March 20, 2016 Share Posted March 20, 2016 Hi JS Mate, I had the 4K problem a few years ago on my 02. Same mods as yours, mine turned out to be a neglected cooling system that was full of scale and corrosion. I fixed all those components, thermostat, knuckle joints, cleaned water galleries and rads. When I started riding again and the ambient temperatures dropped to around 10c, the 4K issue came back. So I changed wax unit, and it's been fixed for 2+years now... My bike does not like much throttle until it approaches 3k.... I've learned to live with that part. Have a good look at your coolant and internal components, sort any scale out. Then change the wax unit, and all will be good! Cheers Antics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsjamboree Posted April 11, 2016 Author Share Posted April 11, 2016 So FINALLY getting around to working on the bike, Went to try and sync the idle valves but the idle adjuster is just plain stuck. By the looks if it im going to have to pull the entire throttle body off the motor to get to it. Before doing that im going to start it and watch and make sure the wax assembly is working correctly. Maybe I should just replace it anyways, especially if others have had that be the issue for the problem. When I push on the levers that hold the idle valves, they dont move at all. I would think they should, so im not 100% sure they are all working correctly, and one of the valves is kinda sticky where the others move easily (if I pull out on it and let go). Once i have it off the bike, i'll be able to clean and check all the valves/passages/assemblies, line etc. Hopefully i'll have some of this sorted this week. If someone has advice or something else to do before/after its off the bike let me know, hope to have it off tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 In the spirit of Antics72's suggestions: Consider replacing the throttle body vacuum hoses. Also consider replacing the coolant hoses. They may be dried out from the heat and age and new ones may seal more predictably. Also consider replacing the thermostat since it requires all of this removal anyway. With any luck these systems will then be good to go for the next 15 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsjamboree Posted April 11, 2016 Author Share Posted April 11, 2016 As another question, on the wax valve, I assume when its cold it retracts on the lever which opens the valves. When warm, it lets go and the lever sits against the idle screw. With it sitting cold, the wax valve doesn't have any tension on the lever at all, I can wiggle its shaft all around and the rubber grommet deal isn't even touching it. I'm guessing my issues lay in there somewhere, maybe the idle is wide open to make up for a faulty wax valve. The issue there is that it does idle down once warm, so thats confusing. Didn't know about the thermostat, that all makes since, i'll grab some vacuum hose and see what coolant hoses are under there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mellowgold Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 I'm having a similar issue with my idle getting stuck at 4k (in cold ambient temperatures). I just pulled my wax idle unit and it was completely plugged with crap likely causing it to stay cold. (http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php/topic/83126-2002-running-cold-high-idle/?p=1034350). I haven't got it reinstalled yet to see if that fixes my problem, but it might be something for you to check into as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsjamboree Posted April 12, 2016 Author Share Posted April 12, 2016 Took my throttle assembly off last night, as I though, the idle was pegged all the way open. So far open the wax unit wasn't even engaged. This likely explains a whole lot of my issues, even issues looking back I now realize were issues as I have been running mega lean at the low RPM. Hopefully they didn't do this to mask another issue somewhere. Ive got a new wax unit, idle control deal, therostat, coolant hose, vacuum hose on the way. Wax unit looked good, and I dont see ANY deposits in the coolant, but i might as well replace it at this point. Injectors are going out today to be cleaned and synced, blew out the idle passages and cleaned the valves (they had some deposits on them). Hopefully it'll go back together and be like a new bike and I can start worrying about rebuilding the suspension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsjamboree Posted April 25, 2016 Author Share Posted April 25, 2016 After rebuilding the throttle bodies the sticking has been resolved, but there is still an issue at low RPMs. Once the bike is warmed up all the way, when I adjust the idle the idle itself doesn't actually change. Didn't change when I was doing the idle valve sync and didn't change after it was all together. It sits at 1150-1200 which i suppose is where its suppose to be but that seems really odd to me. Its almost like the idle/fuel is static, and the idle adjuster is just an air/fuel mix adjuster, which doesn't make since on a fuel injected bike. I checked codes and there were none. When I did the idle sync ( I did it twice to be sure ), they were synced at around 5.5 vacuum inches. I was told by someone else that it should be at 20, but being that there were all pretty much the same it seemed like this was likely accurate for this bike unless there is exactly the same thing wrong with all 4 cylinders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsjamboree Posted May 4, 2016 Author Share Posted May 4, 2016 Alright, so I went through and tested tons of stuff. Here is a list of the things I have done to this point and what I think I know. The sticking at 4k is because someone jammed the idle up so high that it actually overrode the wax valve. So thats an easy fix, once I can get the bike to run without having to do that. At Idle (and low RPM) the bike is running extremely rich. Pulling plugs they are almost dripping wet with a crazy amount of carbon on them. The only way to start the bike is to idle it up so high that its actually higher than the wax valve will pull it. By doing this we are allowing more air in than its suppose to have, but that helps counter the amount of fuel. Recently, its been fowling the plugs after one start and I have to pull them to clean them. By this i mean, I start the bike let it idle until warm to help troubleshoot, then turn off. At that point I usually have to pull the plugs and clean them off before i can get it started again. Once the bike is warm, the idle adjuster really does nothing other than it helps it run better, but doesn't effect idle at all. Cold start the idle sits at about 900-800 and then once its warm it goes to between 1000-1200. Again, there is no way to adjust this, its just whatever it is it is. What have I done: Synced the idle valves best as possible, i really cant get the RPM controlled so they were syned at about 1100 RPM this last time, and they were at 5.5in Hg Replaced all of the vacuum lines at the TB and ensured that the caps on the PAIR ports were not cracked Replaced the wax valve Had all the injectors cleaned and rebuilt New Plugs Ran tests per the book on the MAP, IAT, and ECT sensors, all checked out Ensured power was getting to the coils, and ensured that the plugs had spark through the coils There isn't fuel being pulled into the vacuum lined off of the FPR When I have my powercommander hooked up I can see the throttle position, so that seems to be correct I have unhooked and hooked the PC and its made no difference Put resisters in the O2, and hooked them up and its made no difference Checked resistance across all connectors on the coils, I cant find any sort of test for this so I dont know what if these are in or out of spec or if its even a valid test Poles One Two Three Four 1-2 1143 1123 1145 1103 1-3 52000 47600 52000 51000 1-4 51000 46400 51000 50000 My only ideas left are FPR is somehow stuck open, or the ECU is fubar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer mk2davis Posted May 4, 2016 Member Contributer Share Posted May 4, 2016 Do you have a way to test your fuel pressure? From what I've read, stock is 36psi. And a place called Turbocity is supposed to sell a modified FPR that ups pressure to about 42psi, helping to alleviate low rpm snatchiness. I have zero experience, this is just what I have read. I'm inclined to think that something is encouraging your bike to dump all that fuel at low rpm, like a bad sensor. It thinks your running in the artic. I know you tested IAT. Would a break in the O2 sensor wiring cause rich or lean condition? Since you have eliminated the sensors themselves, you may want to test the harness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsjamboree Posted May 4, 2016 Author Share Posted May 4, 2016 19 minutes ago, mk2davis said: Do you have a way to test your fuel pressure? From what I've read, stock is 36psi. And a place called Turbocity is supposed to sell a modified FPR that ups pressure to about 42psi, helping to alleviate low rpm snatchiness. I have zero experience, this is just what I have read. I'm inclined to think that something is encouraging your bike to dump all that fuel at low rpm, like a bad sensor. It thinks your running in the artic. I know you tested IAT. Would a break in the O2 sensor wiring cause rich or lean condition? Since you have eliminated the sensors themselves, you may want to test the harness. When I tested the sensors, I also followed the guide of testing at the harness to ensure it was correct. I have followed as many leads and connectors as possible and not seen anything out of the ordinary. I could be ECU related, but I dont have one to swap over to test. I read at some point that the O2 sensors only effect a small band for emissions, however I haven't tested those leads, i'll try that tonight. I dont have a way to test FPR, I was thinking that maybe even though I had my injectors cleaned and rebuilt, maybe they didn't really test them proper and one of them is leaking or something. I went for a hail mary, talked to a seller on ebay and picked up an entire throttle body assembly with injectors, frp, the works. If the issue is the exact same, then I can know that its not related there. I looked up turbocity but they seem to have closed up shop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer paulmeisterpk Posted May 5, 2016 Member Contributer Share Posted May 5, 2016 Is the coolant temp sensor telling the ECU that it is still cold, therefore running rich? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsjamboree Posted May 5, 2016 Author Share Posted May 5, 2016 3 minutes ago, paulmeisterpk said: Is the coolant temp sensor telling the ECU that it is still cold, therefore running rich? I tested the ECT when the motor was cold, and it was right on spec. I have not tested it once the motor is warm, but my issues occur no matter if the engine is warm or cold, so I think that shouldn't be the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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