6Th Gen - Why Do Stators Go Bad? Two Toasted In Two Weeks...

[blainerides]

2003 VFR. New to me almost exactly a year ago. This is my 4th VFR (and the only one to ever have any electrical issues, at all). She HAS had the warranty harness thingy done in 2012 by PO. Read on:

The ORIGINAL stator lasted for a pretty damn reasonable 52,XXX miles (11 years!), before finally croaking 13 days ago (Tue 5/20/14). I didn't know it was fried, that day, but that knowledge would come a few days later...

I was told by the shop I took it to that morning of (Tue 5/20 - this happened on my ride to work), that my problem was my R/R and nothing else. I would normally have towed my bike straight to a different mechanic that I've been taking all of my bikes to for over a decade, but he had just banged up his spinal cord (Bruised it! Yes, you can do that!) in a race 48 hours earlier (Sunday) when he landed on his head, and was not answering his phone because he was in the hospital (of course, I didn't know this at the time). Point being, I would normally have access to a pretty electrically-inclined motochanic who knows pretty much all there is to know about motorcycle electronics, but since he was decidedly unavailable, I took it to "Lynnwood Motoplex", which was just a four block walk from my work - I figured they'd still be able to at least tell me what parts were having continuity problems and in need of replacement.

Based on their assessment, I order a Rick's MOSFET regulator/rectifier (http://www.wiremybike.com/vfr-specific-parts-2002-2009-vfr-parts-2002-2009-regulator-rectifier-p-325.html) AND a VFRness (hadn't been done yet by PO, though the standard "wire harness under warranty" HAD, and it was NOT melted - I just wanted to be proactive and it had already been on my mind to do). The R/R and VFRness arrived a few days later (Friday before Memorial Day weekend), because I had it all shipped fast, and Tightwad (http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php/user/11291-tightwad/) here on VFRD, busted his butt to make sure I had all I needed (well as far as I knew based on what Motoplex had told me...) to still be able to get my bike fixed up and be on the road for a long weekend of riding that had been planned for a long time. So, I install the R/R in the Motoplex parking lot, after work on Friday 5/23, and have my wife follow me home in our car, and everything seems to by jivin' just fine. The battery had been on trickle charge for three days and was topped off, so no concerns. IF I had had my plug-in voltage monitor with me (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000EVWDU0/ref=oh_details_o03_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1), it would have immediately told me that my stator was bad, but it was at home in a different riding jacket and, again, the mechanic "pros" at the shop had assured me the R/R was all I had to replace, so I blithely rode away toward home thinking I've fixed the problem. Except I only made it 7 miles. Tow #2 in 4 days. 3-day weekend of riding ruined. Fuck me.

Dead bike:

So, I took the (ruined) weekend to confirm what I already know - that the Motoplex mechanics had mis-diagnosed the problem (I don't actually KNOW that the original R/R was bad, because I didn't test it myself, and I didn't see them do it - I just trusted them), and that the stator is actually what was 100%, for sure, BAD. Yup:

I order a new Rick's stator (via Tightwad aka wiremybike.com) and get it a few days later. It LOOKS like heaven in a box:

So I get it installed...

No issues with the install. Fire it up and bam, I'm back in business. Starts right up and I'm immediately at 14.45 volts, as soon as I turn it on:

So, my dad and brother, who came all the way up here to Washington (from Cali) to ride for 3 days, along with a few other uncles/cousins and their friends, are as stoked as I am - we get to RIDE together (it's a rare thing because of being 1,000 miles away) for three whole days. So, wife and I mount up the next morning and take off to meet them in Tacoma (we live in Bellevue). No issues. Everything's purrin'. After lunch in Port Townsend, my bro and I branch off to pick up the pace a bit (with wife still on the back of my bike). Wife takes a pic of us boys in front of this rig:

Go to turn the bike back on and nothin. I mean I have lights and the dash comes on, but the dreaded clock re-set means only one thing. I'm like, there's no fricking way the stator died after less than 160 miles and only being installed for like 18 hours. But, after some helpful folks sent us to Port Townsend Honda about an hour before they closed, we came across the truth. The mechanic had a multi-meter and we tested the stator connector (what connects to the R/R) to ground - each of the three connectors for yellow wires A/B/C, and there WAS continuity - which is bad. It should be infinity. See post # 4, here, for ref: http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php/topic/78028-where-to-begin-looking-for-electrical-issues/?hl=continuity#entry948902

Just for the shit of it, and because we had like 5 hours of waiting around for a tow truck, we decided to check out the 160-mile-old Rick's stator, and lo and behold:

Wife not happy about our situation:

I can't 100% for certain blame the Rick's stator, not without getting back in to the bike (which we basically could only afford to have to towed to my uncle's in Yelm - was still $500), but for now, I'm going with it was a bad unit, and I can't recommend the Rick's STATORS. I have no problem with the MOSFET R/R they make, so far.

The Rick's stator is being sent back for refund and analysis, but from what the folks at Port Townsend Honda were telling me, they refuse to buy the Rick's stators anymore because "their quality has gone downhill the last few years" (I'm using nicer words than they used) - they only use OEM stators for whatever kind of bike their working on, but especially Honda. I wish I had remembered if they had commented on if they still buy R/R's from Rick's, but I don't. The MOSFET - type that Rick's manufactures sounds to be advanced compared to the Honda OEM R/Rs, so I hope it keeps workin for me and everyone else who has a Rick's R/R. Will be putting in a Honda OEM stator probably next weekend and will re-Ox-gard everything and quadruple check everything else, but I'm pretty darn sure I just got a bad stator from Rick's and I don't intend to trust them again.

By the way, this is a pretty damn good deal on our VFR Battery, if you're in the market for a new one: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000WK0ZA8/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[V-FORE]

I can understand your pain! But one helpful hint next time if it ever happens again instead of towing, buy a battery and pull the headlight fuse, daytime of course and that should get you to where your going....so you work by the Lynnwood Motoplex? I work on the east side of the freeway on 196th we should do lunch sometime. Sorry to hear about your misfortune..... Hopefully the weather holds out until your bike gets back on the road

Gary

[spud786]

Many of these guys don't like OEM, but I don't have time for mickey mouse crap, and why I stick to the oEM. Fixed the first time and direct fit.

Im on my second oem vfr stator(original RR). Both have exceeded more than 50,000 miles , I depend on my bike, and why gamble $50 worth of savings and chance, but it happens every day.

VFR stator isnt even that expensive online, some bikes oem is well over $300.

[thtanner]

OEM is the way to go in my book as well. Had one last 75k mi in a 5th gen so can't go wrong using an OEM to replace it!

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[Bad Boy]

'02 stator lasted 48k, 5 years, was 800 miles from home. OEM not available from Honda at the time, had a dealer install a Rick's stator, lasted 6 months, 7k miles. Rick's replacement installed by a local Honda dealer lasted one week, this time 600 miles from home. Pulled the headlight fuse and made it home with the bad stator. The first installation the bike was dripping oil steadily in front of the dealer's shop. The second installation the wiring was unnecessarily jury rigged together. So I know your frustration.

I replaced battery, stator, and R/R, with OEM parts. I did all the work myself this time. For 5 years and 40k miles, until I sold the bike I had no more electrical issues.

Two lessons for me, OEM parts and I do the the work myself.

[blainerides]

Thanks for the replies, guys. I guess I should have restated my question from the title, at the end of my post...WHY does a stator die, ever? Yes, I know it's thermal degradation (break-down) of the insulation on the copper wires, but WHY does this happen? Why?

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[Switchblade]

No more Rick's for me ...

[CornerCarver]

Thanks for the replies, guys. I guess I should have restated my question from the title, at the end of my post...WHY does a stator die, ever? Yes, I know it's thermal degradation (break-down) of the insulation on the copper wires, but WHY does this happen? Why?

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Some believe it to be starved for cooling oil spray as they are all brown (thermally degraded as it you say) on top.

I have not seen a single failed stator that was not darker on top than the bottom section which rides in a oil bath.

[mcrwt644]

so, after reading this painful story, are we suppose to ride around with a spare r/r and a stator? Maybe a rhetorical question, but serious at the same time. R/r sure, but stator is a bit bigger

[Dutchy]

Well, I will hold on to my OEM stator in spare

It measured ok and looked ok, but with 50k miles on her and WIREMYBIKE coming over with my MOSFET R/R and bought and fitted a new Ricks anyway.....

I will keep an eye on things (voltmeter) more carefully going forward.

Mind you, mine is a 1997 4th Gen so they may not be as frail as the Vtecs (In Sha Allah!!! )

Here the 50k miles OEM

[V-FORE]

not to go to far off topic, but there must be something different with the 4th gens mine is at 101,769 still original , 4th r/r though......

[CornerCarver]

not to go to far off topic, but there must be something different with the 4th gens mine is at 101,769 still original , 4th r/r though......

I worked for a Japanese company for almost 15 years...Their older equipment was overbuilt and designed like a tank, as we gained market share and sales grew at double digit %'s each year newer models designs went through a "cost down" engineering evaluation process.

As a result, components that were not failing were bid out for cheaper replacements on newer models. The equipment would still make it through the warranty period but gone were the days where we would find 15-20 year old units cranking away with little to no maintenance.

Of course the efficiency of the new models is improved but this is dictated by Energy Star and competitive pressure as much as anything else.

The most likely solution is that the stator in the 4G bikes is overbuilt and was de-engineered during a cost down process in subsequent designs.

All of this is pretty standard stuff, evaluating the mean time to failure for components and reducing the price/quality to meet the demands for new equipment pricing.

We bitch about the 2014 having a list price of $13k and being heavy but imagine if every component were still over engineered.

No sense in having a stator that lasts for 18 years when the average bike is disposed of in 7 years...

[HispanicSlammer]

There has got to be a problem with the wireing check the buss fuse, ground blocks always go bad on 6th gens too, too much resistance somewhere, I bet the harness is burned up down the line somewhere past the connector.

Didit had a phase on his stator go bad on us on our trip into Oregon, we ordered parts and had it sent to our hotel the next day, from wiremybike.com a member here owns the site, he overnighted it to us. We pulled the plug on the headlights and limped it 300 miles with no headlights it ran fine with 2 phases - thats 110 watts we pulled off the system so it charged up the battery. The next day 5 of us tore into the thing in the parking lot and got the stator, battery, and RR replaced in 2 hours then cleaned up. Eureka Best Western employees thanks for not busting our balls over that and letting us use your dirty rags to clean up, and the hose too.

The suggestion above about pulling the headlights to save a tow WORKS!

[superfunkomatic]

It's a sickening feeling when your bike dies like that, especially twice. I had two visits, and two tows, from the Grand Canyon a few years back for the same reasons. Replaced R/R but it was also the stator that was pooched. I feel your pain. Luckily, my CAA (equivalent of AMA) membership allows for two free tows per year.

My advice is change R/R, change stator, and check your battery - mine packed it in at the same time as the other two failed. Good luck!

[blainerides]

Thanks for the replies, guys. I guess I should have restated my question from the title, at the end of my post...WHY does a stator die, ever? Yes, I know it's thermal degradation (break-down) of the insulation on the copper wires, but WHY does this happen? Why?

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Some believe it to be starved for cooling oil spray as they are all brown (thermally degraded as it you say) on top.

I have not seen a single failed stator that was not darker on top than the bottom section which rides in a oil bath.

My thoughts ran to this, too. I want to browse more failed stator pics, here on VFRD (will do later today) and see if I can find a pattern. Wondering if perhaps a lighter "winter weight" oil (with a lower viscosity aka "water-ier" than the 10/40 I have in, now) will spin through those holes in the flywheel and then "fly" or spray FARTHER, due to being less syrup-y. I mean, maybe it's just too thick, even at operating temp, to get to all parts of the stator to keep it cool.

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[Switchblade]

Like these .. ?

[blainerides]

Like these .. ?

Damn, they're fried pretty even. Hmmm. Tell me, are they both yours, and do you have any way of knowing what oil you had in when they fried? How long did each one of these last and did the R/R that was in when they died also go out, or did it survive?

[Auspanglish]

You prolly have the BYC (Big Yellow connector) failure... similar to Knuk's Eurethra thread.

http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php/topic/62525-byc/

Like Corner Carver says, WE over here in the Cubata Racing Team división of the ClubVFRSpain fórum think it's a cooling oil spray distribution pattern problema inherent to the 6th gen due to a VTEC oil conduit that blocks the orifice for said purposes (basically because the 5th gen doesn't have this conduit pipe blocking said orifice and 5th gens don't fry so many stators). So we are anxious to see if reducing demand (LED lighting) and lowering output on the new 8th gen's stator will effectively comply with the mission or whether the fact that the 8th gen still ahs VTEC (and thus the conduit pipe blocking the oil spray), the game is lost before it started!!

http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php/topic/76182-stator-bbq-fix/

[blainerides]

You prolly have the BYC (Big Yellow connector) failure... similar to Knuk's Eurethra thread.

http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php/topic/62525-byc/

Like Corner Carver says, WE over here in the Cubata Racing Team división of the ClubVFRSpain fórum think it's a cooling oil spray distribution pattern problema inherent to the 6th gen due to a VTEC oil conduit that blocks the orifice for said purposes (basically because the 5th gen doesn't have this conduit pipe blocking said orifice and 5th gens don't fry so many stators). So we are anxious to see if reducing demand (LED lighting) and lowering output on the new 8th gen's stator will effectively comply with the mission or whether the fact that the 8th gen still ahs VTEC (and thus the conduit pipe blocking the oil spray), the game is lost before it started!!

http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php/topic/76182-stator-bbq-fix/

Do you think a lighter oil weight will make a difference? Ever try it? If someone could do a clear ALTERNATOR cover like Seb's right side see-through cover, maybe we could SEE a difference, but I guess in principle a lighter oil would fling farther, so is there any harm in doing this, even through the summer months of hot weather riding?

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[Auspanglish]

There is a conduit physically in the way. Won't make too much of a difference using alighter weight oil I reckon. Although maybe that would help the front CCT rattle (hehehe).

[blainerides]

There is a conduit physically in the way. Won't make too much of a difference using alighter weight oil I reckon. Although maybe that would help the front CCT rattle (hehehe).

Do you have a photo of this or can you point it out on a parts diagram, so we all understand what you're saying?

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[Dutchy]

A clear cover will be tricky since the stator bolds on to said cover....

[blainerides]

A clear cover will be tricky since the stator bolds on to said cover....

Good point. I wasn't really serious, just saying that IF someone did it, possibly we could solve the mystery of the dying stators by seeing where the oil DOESN'T fly to.

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[Auspanglish]

We looked into the clear window with Seb... it is doable but I don't think you'll get enough of a view to really see anything of value.

There is a conduit physically in the way. Won't make too much of a difference using alighter weight oil I reckon. Although maybe that would help the front CCT rattle (hehehe).

Do you have a photo of this or can you point it out on a parts diagram, so we all understand what you're saying?

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This is the pipe..

[MotormikeVFR]

I've used the "pull the headlight fuse" trick myself years ago to limp in with a failed charging system. Still, does anyone have a guess as to the bikes range with a fully charged battery and a "total loss" electrical system? 20 miles? 50 miles? Stay off the brakes and use hand signals to turn!