New Cct With Enlarged 2.75Mm Oil Port

[spud786]

Im going to install this new front tentioner in a few days, with modded 2.75mm oil port hole in the gasket, the standard hole is .5 mm, anyone tried this yet?

[Switchblade]

Nope

[Switchblade]

can the old one be enlarged ?

[YoshiHNS]

Is this a new revision of an OEM part or is this a modified part? Does the tensioner have a larger hole? Making a larger hole in the gasket probably just helps with misalignment of the gaskets.

[Switchblade]

Does the enlarge hole allow for more oil to the CCT and to the guide ?

[YoshiHNS]

Does the enlarge hole allow for more oil to the CCT and to the guide ?

More oil will only go to the CCT if the CCT has a larger oil port. The gasket shouldn't matter in that regard.

[Switchblade]

Is the larger oil hole used for pressure or to oil the end of the CCT where it contacts the guide ?

[spud786]

I manually enlarged the gasket hole, the hole on the tensioner and the block is about 5mm so Im still about half of that size, this modification to the gasket doesnt effect alignment at all. It just allows more oil to flow into the tentioner, easier and faster.

Now the question does this increase in flow, force more pressure on the internals of the tentioner, and applies more pressure to the chain guide. As far as hydraulics, I say (no) with the amount ive done atleast , there's no piston or anything that that catches the increased flow of oil, the entry oil port in the tentioner runs through a tunnel in the aluminum tensioner body all the way to the end, the oil comes out of this port and lubricates the spring, and then flows back out through two oil holes where the plunger goes into the body. There's nothing really there to catch oil and force more pressure on the tentioner plunger.

Theroretically, if there was alot of pressure, it could blow the tentioner apart mechanically, cause the thing is held together by a wire c ring retaining clip. My guess is honda makes the port in the gasket really small to limit pressure, but maybe its just too small and is detrimental to the front tentioner and why it seems to be much more problematic than the rear, which is normally flooded with oil, Ive never seen the front one flooded with oil(ever). The front one just doesnt seem to see as much oil flow, so Im going to see what effect this has.

Many believe the rattle is the chain, but I proved that wrong years ago with a test, I loosened the front tentioner mounting screws 2mm , this allowed the plunger to extend 2mm and the tension seperated the tentioner from the block , then I retightend down the screws, this drove the tensioner harder into the chain, no rattle now, but a KNOCK, KNOck, and i could hear the chain riding on the guide under stress.. Thats when I knew it was not the chain rattling at all but the internals of the tentioner itself.

This tentioner I have right now, becomes noisey a few minutes after start up, after 5 miles it goes quiet, IMO, its taking that long to fill with oil, I dont know why it consistantly goes quiet after five miles, other than that reason.

[hondalover]

I'll be watching how this turns out Brian. My APE manual tensioner is still quite, but it is still a manual part (although I have never had to adjust it as of yet). This would be the cheapest "fix" if this actually works. So is your current tensioner making noise even with the oil you've found to be most resistant to the CCT noise?

[spud786]

I'll be watching how this turns out Brian. My APE manual tensioner is still quite, but it is still a manual part (although I have never had to adjust it as of yet). This would be the cheapest "fix" if this actually works. So is your current tensioner making noise even with the oil you've found to be most resistant to the CCT noise?

This tensioner has alot of history, I replaced it New around 30,000 miles on the bike, that was after testing the original tentioner in varios ways mentioned, and finding nothing wrong with it other than rattle noise. But this new tentioner installed at 30,000 ,iles rattled almost off the bat when new, and I was pissed, a waste of money. That was when I discovered certain car oils and noise went away, and noise wasnt an issue for about or 40,000 or 45,000 miles afterwards. But after this tentioner got post 50,000 mile sor so, no particular oils that id ran in the past seem to have any effect with its noise. I recently had to replace a rear tentioner around 90,000 miles a year ago(the first time) it had ever had issue with the rear, and it was bad and ,making strong knocking noise, new tentioner fixed it.

But Im at the point where I have to replace this front tentioner with 75,000 miles and its been noisey for about 15 or 20,000 miles, even though I swore id never waste any more money on an oem ACCT, its just I can do it with out tearing the bike down, with much more than lifting the tank and remove the side panel. I really didnt know with the limited amount that I tear down the bike to replace, I could easily fit the manual tentioner adjust it and tighten it. I didnt have a crows foot, or knew if I could fit in there with airbox in place. so I went acct again, just for familiarity and conveinance.

This is about the only thing ive not played with on the front tentioner(enlaging the oil hole), so I thought I rule it out. Since Im installing a new one.

[Switchblade]

I have always thought the rattle was the CCT at the point where it contacts the guide.

I like your logic, eliminating all the variables.

[spud786]

I have always thought the rattle was the CCT at the point where it contacts the guide.

I like your logic, eliminating all the variables.

Well, you may be right its steel plunger cap, againsta steel metal post on the guide. Ive heard some say they remove the steel cap and just use the rubber plunger, and no noise. But I feel with the oscillation in that area, Id be afraid that rubber would wear over time.

But why doesnt the rear tentioner have the same kronic issue, but if there is any oil flow benefit with what Im doing, where the oil exits out of the tentioner, is just above the plunger cap area , so it should get oil more also in that area.

But you know, the manuals are steel on steel in that area, and they dont make noise.

[hondalover]

What I'd really like for someone to try is keeping the known noisey CCT, but just enlarging that hole to see if the noise goes away. I think we are all in agreeance that a new CCT will be quite. But if you can quite the noisey one with just an enlarged hole in the gasket, we have a very easy and cheap fix to one of the major complaints on the 6th gen.

[Switchblade]

I have always thought the rattle was the CCT at the point where it contacts the guide.

I like your logic, eliminating all the variables.

Well, you may be right its steel plunger cap, againsta steel metal post on the guide. Ive heard some say they remove the steel cap and just use the rubber plunger, and no noise. But I feel with the oscillation in that area, Id be afraid that rubber would wear over time.

But why doesnt the rear tentioner have the same kronic issue, but if there is any oil flow benefit with what Im doing, where the oil exits out of the tentioner, is just above the plunger cap area , so it should get oil more also in that area.

But you know, the manuals are steel on steel in that area, and they dont make noise.

I think if you look at the position of the front one compared to the back one you will see. The back one is positioned higher on the guide plate and does not have as much guide to control.

What I'd really like for someone to try is keeping the known noisey CCT, but just enlarging that hole to see if the noise goes away. I think we are all in agreeance that a new CCT will be quite. But if you can quite the noisey one with just an enlarged hole in the gasket, we have a very easy and cheap fix to one of the major complaints on the 6th gen.

+1 I know its just matter of time before mine suffers the same fate ..

[Auspanglish]

What I'd really like for someone to try is keeping the known noisey CCT, but just enlarging that hole to see if the noise goes away. I think we are all in agreeance that a new CCT will be quite. But if you can quite the noisey one with just an enlarged hole in the gasket, we have a very easy and cheap fix to one of the major complaints on the 6th gen.

This is actually the better way to really check if the enlarged hole makes a difference. Someone mentioned earlier they liked your approach as it covered all the variables but actually, performing this test with a new CCT and finding it makes no noise would have you wondering whether it is due to the enlarged hole or the new CCT.

So to really be scientific you shouldn't do this with the new CCT, as you are merely introducing an extra variable leading to confusion between two possible causes of your success in removing CCT noise.

Try it with the old one first and report back.

[Switchblade]

I manually enlarged the gasket hole, the hole on the tensioner and the block is about 5mm so Im still about half of that size, this modification to the gasket doesnt effect alignment at all. It just allows more oil to flow into the tentioner, easier and faster.

Now the question does this increase in flow, force more pressure on the internals of the tentioner, and applies more pressure to the chain guide. As far as hydraulics, I say (no) with the amount ive done atleast , there's no piston or anything that that catches the increased flow of oil, the entry oil port in the tentioner runs through a tunnel in the aluminum tensioner body all the way to the end, the oil comes out of this port and lubricates the spring, and then flows back out through two oil holes where the plunger goes into the body. There's nothing really there to catch oil and force more pressure on the tentioner plunger.

Theroretically, if there was alot of pressure, it could blow the tentioner apart mechanically, cause the thing is held together by a wire c ring retaining clip. My guess is honda makes the port in the gasket really small to limit pressure, but maybe its just too small and is detrimental to the front tentioner and why it seems to be much more problematic than the rear, which is normally flooded with oil, Ive never seen the front one flooded with oil(ever). The front one just doesnt seem to see as much oil flow, so Im going to see what effect this has.

Many believe the rattle is the chain, but I proved that wrong years ago with a test, I loosened the front tentioner mounting screws 2mm , this allowed the plunger to extend 2mm and the tension seperated the tentioner from the block , then I retightend down the screws, this drove the tensioner harder into the chain, no rattle now, but a KNOCK, KNOck, and i could hear the chain riding on the guide under stress.. Thats when I knew it was not the chain rattling at all but the internals of the tentioner itself.

This tentioner I have right now, becomes noisey a few minutes after start up, after 5 miles it goes quiet, IMO, its taking that long to fill with oil, I dont know why it consistantly goes quiet after five miles, other than that reason.

And it always rattles under de-acceleration right ? So when the timing chain is under de-acceleration there's slack produce in the chain and the CCT encounters a reversed pressure apply to it. Under acceleration the chain is forced outward toward the CCT with no noise .

[Switchblade]

And one of the variables would be not enough oil ....

[Auspanglish]

Exactly. One of the variables is the oil flow. Another is wear and tear. When testing any particular variable, you should only introduce or modify one at a time.

If my battery goes flat it could be the battery, the stator, the regulator, the wiring.. If I swap out the stator, the regulator and the wiring and the battery charges up well and holes its charge, I can't say whether it's due to the stator, the regulator or the wiring.. Although I can discard the battery being as being at the end of its useful life.

[spud786]

What I'd really like for someone to try is keeping the known noisey CCT, but just enlarging that hole to see if the noise goes away. I think we are all in agreeance that a new CCT will be quite. But if you can quite the noisey one with just an enlarged hole in the gasket, we have a very easy and cheap fix to one of the major complaints on the 6th gen.

Yeah I know what you mean, But I think once these tentioners get up to 70 or 90,000 mile they are just shot spring tention wise. I know the rear tentioner that went out at 90,000 miles, nothing was going to fix that one, and Id never had issue with it until that time, but also no oil flow issue with that one.

You have the right idea with the manual, its a life time item. Id be happy with an acct to go seventy or 90,000 miles noise free, thats really my goal. The goal is to get the front one at the same reliability level as the rear. I just see a big difference between the two on average. Going on my 3rd front tentioner, and the 2nd one, made noise near right off the bat. Right now I have redline oil in the bike, and has proven no value with noisey tentioner.

But maybe some has a low milege tentioner Under 30,000 miles with noise and tries it. We'll see if I can obtain anything promising

What I'd really like for someone to try is keeping the known noisey CCT, but just enlarging that hole to see if the noise goes away. I think we are all in agreeance that a new CCT will be quite. But if you can quite the noisey one with just an enlarged hole in the gasket, we have a very easy and cheap fix to one of the major complaints on the 6th gen.

This is actually the better way to really check if the enlarged hole makes a difference. Someone mentioned earlier they liked your approach as it covered all the variables but actually, performing this test with a new CCT and finding it makes no noise would have you wondering whether it is due to the enlarged hole or the new CCT.

So to really be scientific you shouldn't do this with the new CCT, as you are merely introducing an extra variable leading to confusion between two possible causes of your success in removing CCT noise.

Try it with the old one first and report back.

Your right I wouldnt know (really) till a considerable amount of milege.

[spud786]

And it always rattles under de-acceleration right ? So when the timing chain is under de-acceleration there's slack produce in the chain and the CCT encounters a reversed pressure apply to it. Under acceleration the chain is forced outward toward the CCT with no noise .

Not as a general rule , although I have heard it in the last several thousand miles on decel somewhat or like coming off a fresh restart on decel, usually all my noise has been mainly at idle, with no load on the motor(thats where its the nosiest is prior to reaching 5 mile mark off a cold start(then it goes quiet). But your right the main reason Im replacing, its starting to show up on decel (much more now) , its becoming more pronounced on decel at times, I am hearing some of that.. But I wouldnt classify tensioner noise on my vfr as very noisey on decel, compared to the crazy loud clack noise at idle in the first 5 miles, with no load on the motor, like at a stop sign.

[Metallican525]

I WISH I had known that damn oil feed hole was that retardedly tiny before I bought my APE's. Sadly, I didn't realize till I had all parts in hand and I said eff it I'm not riskin it for the ammout of work. Have new parts in hand, new parts are goin on engine! I have been curious if it has been tried and if it worked tho so keep us updated Spud and thanks!!

[spud786]

I know, on this particular tentioner, oil and oil flow arent going to matter its too far gone , its reached the same age level where my rear failed with noise and no hope.

Many years ago, there was a guy who said he removed the clip on his noisey tentioner, and wound the spring 5 turns tighter, no more noise. I tried this on my original replaced tensioner back at 30,000 mile when I replaced it, the thing unwound and exploded. I never could trust that I got it back to where it was, before trying the 5 turn trick.

Believe me when you remove that clip, the thing will explode and unwind, so you have to know exactly what your doing , to keep it from going BOiiiiING!!!!! try it you'll like it LOL!!!!

Anyway, that original tentioner sat for years, I just recently fiqured out make it usable and what method to use to wind the spring tighter. I actually thought I got it too tight, but when compared to this new tentioner Im about to install, the new one feels slighter tighter. But when I pull this tentioner in the bike now, I will compare the tention.

Back when I removed the original tentioner at 30,000 mile I compared that new tentioner at that time, and actually the new tentioner didnt feel as tight as the one I pulled out, and it was the one that made noise nearly right off the bat.

when I replaced the rear tentioner awhile back, I fiqured it was 50/50 whether I got a good one or not. but between added oil and a good wind on this new tentioner, maybe I get lucky this time around.

[Auspanglish]

You just put it back together... there is no extra preload on the spring in its OEM form... only that which comes from pulling the plunger in and holding it with the key prior to installing on the bike (but then it releases again as you remove the key so, no preload). I have this information direct from Honda. So if you want to try the 5 turns more trick you simply start from 0 turns

[Switchblade]

And it always rattles under de-acceleration right ? So when the timing chain is under de-acceleration there's slack produce in the chain and the CCT encounters a reversed pressure apply to it. Under acceleration the chain is forced outward toward the CCT with no noise .

Not as a general rule , although I have heard it in the last several thousand miles on decel somewhat or like coming off a fresh restart on decel, usually all my noise has been mainly at idle, with no load on the motor(thats where its the nosiest is prior to reaching 5 mile mark off a cold start(then it goes quiet). But your right the main reason Im replacing, its starting to show up on decel (much more now) , its becoming more pronounced on decel at times, I am hearing some of that.. But I wouldnt classify tensioner noise on my vfr as very noisey on decel, compared to the crazy loud clack noise at idle in the first 5 miles, with no load on the motor, like at a stop sign.

Thanks for the input. I know in the future I will have to replace mine .

[zRoYz]

I don't see it mentioned but there is a reason for the small hole & that is drainage when no oil pressure, it stops the oil draining out of the tensioner. Oil pressure will always force oil into the cct but when no oil pressure it will drain out due to gravity so you will have a larger time period of low oil in cct if you enlarge the hole which will cause more wear to cct. It isn't a major issue with rear cct because it mounts so oil can't drain but the front cct will drain.

On another note seeing there mentioned here the APE tensioner is very badly engineered, they tend to leak oil from the threaded rod because the oring that squashes with the locking nut doesn't seal all the time that well on the thread of the adjusting rod. I fixed this problem but it does make adjustment a little more difficult & you do have to modify the adjuster set up. I removed the adjusting nut which is held in place with a pin which does snap easy if the top of thread does become damaged there is still enough rod for adjustment if you cut off small amount of damaged thread (damage to thread from pin may or may not happen, one of mine damaged the thread the other didn't) if your lucky & the pin isn't in a blind hole then just use pin punch to remove it but mine was in a bind hole (if a blind hole you could just drill from other side). I then removed the locking nut & replaced it with a nyloc nut (still leave oring on threaded rod) you will need to hold end of adjusted in a vise with soft jaws to wind nyloc nut down. Then use two low profile nuts opposing each other at top of threaded rod for adjustment (two nuts tightened against each other locks them so no need for stupid small weak pin).

It is harder to adjust with nyloc nut but the nyloc nut helps seal the thread & since doing this mod my adjusters don't leak oil the rear adjusted used to leak even after changing oring & even trying two orings. Another thing to do is use a honing stone to flatten bottom of nyloc nut for a better seal on oring as everything helps.