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Another F4I Shock 6Th Gen Conversion


2thdr

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First of all I want to publicly thank Fred (Huntinggunns) for coming over yesterday and doing most of the work (I passed him tools...does that count?) of reinstalling my Jamie Daugherty rebuilt forks (re-spring, re-valve), installing new steering head tapered roller bearings, and swapping out my stock shock for a Jamie Daugherty re-sprung, re-valved F4i shock. If there is a motorcycle Heaven, I'm sure Fred is going! Thanks again!

Anyway, after a test ride on our washboard-bumpy pavement yesterday, I came to the conclusion that my settings were off. I haven't contacted Jamie yet, but following Keith Code's method for determining and setting rider sag, I still have some questions. I was surprised to find that to get 38mm rider sag on the forks I had to crank the preload down to only one line showing on the adjuster. I was also disappointed that the rider sag initially was too soft due to the rough ride I experienced yesterday...I was hoping it was set too stiff! Maybe I am expecting too much in the balance between comfort on rough roads and having it stiff enough for hard braking and cornering.

The shock was also disappointing to find that preload was set about right (again I was hoping it was set too hard so I could back it off). I determined that rider sag on the rear shock is 41 mm. So, 38 mm front and 41 mm rear rider sag. This set up feels much stiffer than my stock set up did as it should. I guess I was hoping for more compliance (comfort) as well. Since Jamie did not replace the fork caps, but just the springs and valves, I believe I am right in assuming that I have no rebound or compression damping adjustments just as before. I do however now have compression damping adjustment on the remote reservoir for the shock. I do not know how to make this adjustment...there is a slotted screw that turns about 1.5 turns from stop to stop. Is this the adjustment screw or just a set screw? The screw is in a fitting that could possibly be turned with an appropriate spanner, but none of my wrenches really fit on it, so I didn't want to booger it up without asking first.

What rider sag are others using on a 6th gen?

F4i shock reservoir

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Keith Code's method for measuring Rider Sag is to unload the forks completely, measure exposed fork tube (bottom of lower triple to fork seal), then unload rear wheel completely and measure from axle to point on rear cowl. With rider and gear on board take front and rear measurements again, then subtract to get Rider Sag. I think some people say to subtract measurement with rider on bike from Static Sag (with suspension loaded by the bike's weight) to get Rider Sag measurement. If that is your method, then yes, 38 mm would be excessive.



Yes, the screw on the outside that goes 1.5 turns either way is the compression damping adjustment. Make sure not to tighten it to either side, it has a tapered needle at the end and it can be damaged.

OK...thanks so much. Again, bad for me, the adjustment was set to all the way soft. I was hoping it was set to the hard side. I think I need someone to ride my bike that is about my weight and see what they think...

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I've always used the 25-30 range for my preload settings fr/rr. Race settings and street settings are usually a little different, where street will typically have more sag. For reference, the RT Suspension bible has race settings 25-35 and street 30-35. Although there are other factors to consider, having a 39/41 sag measurement seems like your off a bit.

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Steve,With your riding style I would shoot for 32 - 35 front and rear. If you can let me know what your static sag is. BR posted a thread somewhere that really helps to understand how those two measurements go hand in hand when making sure you have the right spring rate. Btw, you are more than welcome. How did the steering itself feel with the all balls installed? I did have severe nightmares last night knowing the fork height on one fork was .004 off from the other. Call it OCD, my wife does.:lol:Sent from my crazy hand held thingy using Tapatalk 2

Just re-read your post. An easier way to measure sag on your forks is to use a zip tie wrapped around the fork tube. Let me dig up HS's thread on setting sag and BR's thread on getting the right spring rate and I will shoot them to you.Sent from my crazy hand held thingy using Tapatalk 2

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That was what I forgot to mention! The steering is so smooth and precise now, it's like night and day. I didn't realize how notchy and twitchy the steering was before. I can take my hands off the bars and it's steady straight. Before, hands off the bars frequently resulted in a nervous back and forth twitching of the front.

Speaking to Fred's OCD...you've heard the saying, "Measure twice, cut once" referring to woodworking. Well Fred's practice is " Measure a dozen times, and then you may torque that triple..." LOL! Thanks again Fred!

I'm re-reading the Race Tech Suspension Bible section on Sag. Going to have another go at measuring. Got to get me a tape that measures in metric. Converting every time is a PITA!

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It's usually Damping that causes harshness not spring rates.

On spring rates, did you determine Free Sag on either end???

Free Sag is how much the suspension sags with just the weight of the bike alone.

Off the top of my head I think Ohlins recommends 8-15mm Free on the Rear and I'm drawing a blank on front Free sag, maybe 15-25mm?

Also I would set all damping adjustments on full soft when checking sag numbers.

So with the proper spring rate you would have ie: 8-15mm free sag and 25-35mm rider sag on the rear.

BR

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It's usually Damping that causes harshness not spring rates.

On spring rates, did you determine Free Sag on either end???

Free Sag is how much the suspension sags with just the weight of the bike alone.

Off the top of my head I think Ohlins recommends 8-15mm Free on the Rear and I'm drawing a blank on front Free sag, maybe 15-25mm?

Also I would set all damping adjustments on full soft when checking sag numbers.

So with the proper spring rate you would have ie: 8-15mm free sag and 25-35mm rider sag on the rear.

BR

Haven't measured Free Sag yet. Race Tech book also gives more detailed way to measure Rider Sag by averaging a couple of measurements to try to negate the effects of stiction. So I have some more work to do. I did go on another ride tonight in the cold after I put the compression and rebound damper settings to about midway. I couldn't tell that it helped a lot. There are sections of concrete pavement that have a washboard effect and it almost throws me off the seat.

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Got a quick reply from Jamie via email and he had some suggestions for me. Great customer service from Jamie BTW. I will update after I have had a chance to ride this new set up a while...thanks to everyone.

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Here is an excerpt of what I forwarded to Steve:

I think it is important to remember something that I suggest to all riders who get a new suspension setup - wait about a month before making any major adjustments. I think what you are feeling is "different" and not necessarily bad. By design the new setup has increased low speed damping. as compared to stock. This is what generates your control and rider feedback. Maybe better said, that is what is missing with the stock VFR suspension. The high speed range now has even less damping than stock which is what generates a more plush feel than stock and better bump compliance, both of which are major improvements over stock.

Also, do not correlate sag to comfort. Changing the sag only alters the ride height, nothing else. Based on your numbers I would say things measured out exactly where I had intended them to. I'd probably go back to 40mm of front sag which will net you about another line showing on the adjusters. The rear could use one notch increase in preload. Yes, that adjustment is difficult to reach which is the case for all monoshock rear suspension systems. I have a variety of spanners tools which really helps. At 41mm you are within a good range so there would not be a problem leaving it there at least for the short term.

I suggest putting the shock settings back to 1.5 turns out from full hard/slow on both the compression and rebound adjustments. Once you get a few more miles under your belt then you can start changing them. You probably won't want to change the compression. It might seem counter intuitive right now but the rebound adjustment is what will give you the most change. Maybe softening that up by 0.5 turn would help.



I can't stress enough how important it is to understand what the bike is doing (or not doing) rather than just going by feel. That's why I suggest folks wait a period of time before making any major changes. Certainly the suspension will feel different - that was the whole purpose! If things still don't fit the rider's desires after a couple of months then an adjustment could be needed. We are humans and therefore everyone is a bit different. That's what makes life so much fun!

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Got a quick reply from Jamie via email and he had some suggestions for me. Great customer service from Jamie BTW. I will update after I have had a chance to ride this new set up a while...thanks to everyone.

Jamie was great to work with when I ordered my parts. He really explained a lot. If you do wind up needing to adjust the preload on the rear shock, let me know. We can get it done. 40mm will feel a little softer than the recomended 32 -35 so try that for a while. BTW, as soon as I finish up the "can of tuna" I will drop by and let your wife try it out. I know, it is a Suzuki, but it sure is a hoot to ride.

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Got a quick reply from Jamie via email and he had some suggestions for me. Great customer service from Jamie BTW. I will update after I have had a chance to ride this new set up a while...thanks to everyone.

Jamie was great to work with when I ordered my parts. He really explained a lot. If you do wind up needing to adjust the preload on the rear shock, let me know. We can get it done. 40mm will feel a little softer than the recomended 32 -35 so try that for a while. BTW, as soon as I finish up the "can of tuna" I will drop by and let your wife try it out. I know, it is a Suzuki, but it sure is a hoot to ride.

Sounds great Fred...thanks!

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I have made a couple of purchases from Jamie myself. He is good at customer service. And, no, he didn't pay me to say that!

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Got a quick reply from Jamie via email and he had some suggestions for me. Great customer service from Jamie BTW. I will update after I have had a chance to ride this new set up a while...thanks to everyone.

Jamie was great to work with when I ordered my parts. He really explained a lot. If you do wind up needing to adjust the preload on the rear shock, let me know. We can get it done. 40mm will feel a little softer than the recomended 32 -35 so try that for a while. BTW, as soon as I finish up the "can of tuna" I will drop by and let your wife try it out. I know, it is a Suzuki, but it sure is a hoot to ride.

Another reminder guys: the bike will not feel any different. The spring preload only adjusts the ride height of the bike. Essentially you are changing the chassis geometery. This discussion goes back to the basics: understanding what the bike is doing (or not doing). That will help you to understand what changes, if any, are needed. For example, if you feel the suspension is too harsh the first thing to change is the rebound damping. I hope this helps!

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Put the preload back to two rings on the forks and put the comp / rebound damping back to 1.5 turn out from full hard / slow as Jamie suggested. Leaving it there until I go to Arkansas next weekend to put her through her paces and see what I think. Hope the weather cooperates!

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  • 2 weeks later...
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How about your external reservoir mounting? I'm finding that my zipties don't really pass muster. I was thinking of the hose clamps with the rubber gaskets. Has anyone done this, and if so, what size did you use? It obviously needs to be big enough to around the reservoir and the subframe tube...

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Adel clamps (otherwise known as tube clamps) would be the cats meow. You can get them at Ace Hardware, but I prefer to use aircraft quality and you can get those at Hardware Inc in Bethany. You would need two to fit the reservoir OD and two that fit the subframe tube OD. Place them around their respective pieces and bolt together with one common bolt and nut.

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Got a quick reply from Jamie via email and he had some suggestions for me. Great customer service from Jamie BTW. I will update after I have had a chance to ride this new set up a while...thanks to everyone.

Jamie was great to work with when I ordered my parts. He really explained a lot. If you do wind up needing to adjust the preload on the rear shock, let me know. We can get it done. 40mm will feel a little softer than the recomended 32 -35 so try that for a while. BTW, as soon as I finish up the "can of tuna" I will drop by and let your wife try it out. I know, it is a Suzuki, but it sure is a hoot to ride.

Another reminder guys: the bike will not feel any different. The spring preload only adjusts the ride height of the bike. Essentially you are changing the chassis geometery. This discussion goes back to the basics: understanding what the bike is doing (or not doing). That will help you to understand what changes, if any, are needed. For example, if you feel the suspension is too harsh the first thing to change is the rebound damping. I hope this helps!

Are you just talking about being on the high side? Because I'm pretty sure not having enough sag can equate to a sudden lack of traction if your shock were to top out mid corner.

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Adel clamps (otherwise known as tube clamps) would be the cats meow. You can get them at Ace Hardware, but I prefer to use aircraft quality and you can get those at Hardware Inc in Bethany. You would need two to fit the reservoir OD and two that fit the subframe tube OD. Place them around their respective pieces and bolt together with one common bolt and nut.

Thanks Gary, just what I was looking for...

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  • 3 weeks later...
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Never followed up with how I felt about the new fork internals and reworked F4i shock by JDM. The bike handles much more predictably in the mountains, with absolutely no wallowing for pogoing even with bags loaded on the trip there and back. Turn in seems more precise and responsive. Back home on the straight bumpy concrete the ride is more harsh...even so, a welcom trade for the increased handling confidence where is ride for fun.

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Never followed up with how I felt about the new fork internals and reworked F4i shock by JDM. The bike handles much more predictably in the mountains, with absolutely no wallowing for pogoing even with bags loaded on the trip there and back. Turn in seems more precise and responsive. Back home on the straight bumpy concrete the ride is more harsh...even so, a welcom trade for the increased handling confidence where is ride for fun.

How was the ride height when you finished? I reworked my suspension with stiffer springs, new shock and revalved forks and have about an inch increase in height I think I will now have to lower the bike an inch to get back to where my legs reach the ground. Overall, great improvement.

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Never followed up with how I felt about the new fork internals and reworked F4i shock by JDM. The bike handles much more predictably in the mountains, with absolutely no wallowing for pogoing even with bags loaded on the trip there and back. Turn in seems more precise and responsive. Back home on the straight bumpy concrete the ride is more harsh...even so, a welcom trade for the increased handling confidence where is ride for fun.

How was the ride height when you finished? I reworked my suspension with stiffer springs, new shock and revalved forks and have about an inch increase in height I think I will now have to lower the bike an inch to get back to where my legs reach the ground. Overall, great improvement.

JD said he usually increases the ride height in the rear about 1/2" (?) , but I asked him to leave mine the same, since I have a short inseam. It seems like he did just that, as it feels like the height is the same as before.

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  • 3 months later...

Does anyone have good feedback on the reservoir mounting location? I mounted my F4i reservoir similar to this (stolen from the stickied F4 shock thread)

reservoirmount.jpg

mine is slid a bit further back on the bottom of the battery box, further behind the left rear footpeg mount. I am not fully happy with it, it is too close to the chain guard and rear brake lines for my comfort. The banjo bolt on the reservoir is tightened in such a way as to make it difficult to attach directly to the tubular frame part, as well. Just doesn't want to sit nicely on that tube. And putting it right up into the fender well is a recipe for getting it caked in dirt. I wish this cable was longer!

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Can't give you any photos cause I don't have the bike any longer, but I got some Adel clamps (aluminum or SS bands with rubber or silicone wraps), two large ones to fit around the remote reservoir and two smaller ones to fit around the subframe tube, bolt together with small SS fasteners. I got the clamps at McMaster-Carr. Very solid install, didn't move.

Here's what I got:

http://www.mcmaster.com/#3177t79/=ntniqs

http://www.mcmaster.com/#3177t76/=ntnj3j

Got the SS fasteners from my local ACE hardware, they always carry a good selection of SS

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