VFR track bike

[kaldek]

Hi folks,

In consideration of the fact that I'm a sure buyer for the new VFR1200, I'm thinking of keeping my existing '02 VTEC to use as a combination of spare bike and track bike.

Given that, what list of mods would you all recommend? What I'm thinking is a bike which can be converted to track and back to street with about 6 hours of labour each way, and my current list of ideas is this:

• Disconnect and remove headlight globes
  
• Remove mirrors and install cover plates on mirror mounts
  
• Remove grab handles
  
• Remove pannier mounts (and hence the metal fender mount)
  
• Remove plastic fender (in my case, it's already gone)
  
• Remove rear footpegs
  
• Remove centrestand
  
• Remove catalytic converter and fit Powercommander to create matching tune (yeah, I know this is not legal, etc)
  

The above is just body work really. If you have mechanical recommendations I'm happy to hear them!

Note also my plans above won't work *too* well if I decide to sell my panniers. Maybe I'll need to stick the plastic fender back on - albeit chopped. I would also consider selling my Staintunes for some extra cash, which is the most painful part because they just sound sooo good.

I'm curious how much "racetrack difference" removing the PAIR valves and airbox flapper valve will be (especially considering that I think the airbox flapper is a defacto intake tract length changer and should really boost low-down response).

[CandyRedRC46]

i would do all the above plus:

remove evap canister and all associated hoses/hardware

remove and blockoff pair valves and all associated hoses and hardware

these two are mainly just for weight loss though disabling the pair valves does give more accurate air/fuel ratios for who ever tunes your bike.

also i would remove the snorkel and disable the flapper. the benifits are added sound a little horsepower and a little weight savings.

one thing that i would like to do to my bike but wouldnt feel comfortable on the street with is a thurn tail riser and possibly lowering the front end. this would give quicker turn in and handling.

maybe a 1 down and 2 or 3 up sprocket kit.

also i would as you said scrap the staintunes for added cash and look into somesort of light weight custom shorty muffler, then ditch all the heat sheilding material in the tail section...

[kaldek]

remove and blockoff pair valves and all associated hoses and hardware

these two are mainly just for weight loss though disabling the pair valves does give more accurate air/fuel ratios for who ever tunes your bike.

Interesting, I hadn't thought of that with regards to tuning.

also i would remove the snorkel and disable the flapper. the benifits are added sound a little horsepower and a little weight savings.

Not really sure if I agree with that - I've tested how the flapper works on the VTEC model and it's under load, not just low revs (in fact the airbox flapper is open all the time unless you and only closes if you are below 5,000rpm AND then whack the throttle open - I had a post on the forum here awhile back but it got lost in an upgrade). In essence - there is no possible way this mod can increase horsepower. The total weight saving must be 200 grams at most!

I will admit though that snorkel removal creates a meaty intake sound...

one thing that i would like to do to my bike but wouldnt feel comfortable on the street with is a thurn tail riser and possibly lowering the front end. this would give quicker turn in and handling.

maybe a 1 down and 2 or 3 up sprocket kit.

The geometry changes I'd be cool with, but the sprocket kit I don't think is worth it. She certainly wasn't lacking drive at Phillip Island yesterday, and on the main straight you wouldn't get any top-end speed!

also i would as you said scrap the staintunes for added cash and look into somesort of light weight custom shorty muffler, then ditch all the heat sheilding material in the tail section...

Man, she'd look wierd with no pipes under the seat!!

[SEBSPEED]

I would fit a set of CBR600F4i forks, along with the mandatory de-linking of the brakes. Get a spare upper cowl and fill in the headlight voids, also a spare front subharness so you can unplug your good cowl with lights and all, then stick the spare on with no weight. Remove the taillight as well, don't need that on the track!

Work the suspension if you haven't already... and get good tires!

[jeremy556]

Having done that before, I would sell it and pickup a used race bike.

[KevCarver]

Having done that before, I would sell it and pickup a used race bike.

:biggrin:

Too many compromises to make a really effective track bike. Just my opinion. Of course, I was hoping to try BaileyRock's attempt at a 6G track bike. He started with a non runner and built up from base chassis. Not removing and replacing. I especially liked the custom rear subframe.

The ubiquitous Gixxer is a much easier route to go. In reality, a good track bike is all down to availability of replacement parts. Fiberglass and frame sliders are much easier to repair than factory ABS plastics. Same with case covers, footpegs and handlebars.

Just for comparison, my RC51 goes from street to track in 2.5 hours. All bodywork to fiberglass, drain and swap tank, swap wheels. Without a spare tank or Marvic wheels to swap it would take far less.

[FotoMoto]

Besides what has all ready been mentioned, remove all bodywork, all lights, and tank and replace with dented tank, chinese bodywork, and sliders.

[Guest]

I'd throw in different rearsets as well.. but seriously if I was in your shoes that I was going to have an almost dedicated track bike, I would pickup a CBR600, R6, Ninja, or my beloved RC51..

[kaldek]

I'd throw in different rearsets as well.. but seriously if I was in your shoes that I was going to have an almost dedicated track bike, I would pickup a CBR600, R6, Ninja, or my beloved RC51..

Yeah, I totally get that. My brother in law has a dedicated Gixxer 1000 track bike which won the state championship in 2001. It has full race pipe, a Yoshi ECU, race bodywork and about 170hp at the rear wheel. He paid $5,000 for it and it came with two sets of slicks, a set of wet weather tyres, tyre warmers, a race stand, AND a hydraulic work stand. And that included interstate delivery!!

My idea is a bit different though - it's a combination spare road bike and track bike which I want. In all honesty, I could use it as a track bike without doing anything to it, but my plan was mainly for a little bit of weight saving and removal of the common stuff that breaks for when on the track.

[Baileyrock]

Suspension, brakes and just pull off the bodywork and ride it as a naked! :rolleyes:

I guess I never posted about my vtec track bike project or did I? :fing02:

I stripped off as much weight and crap as possible which included de-linking the brakes and running a full F4i front end. I ran 98 catless headers, single side slip-on, PCIII, etc.

I made a simple bracket extender for the lower rearset mount that rotated them back a 1/2" and up a 1 1/2". Braided lines w/ radial m/c and bunch of other stuff including 15/45 520 kit. Ohlins rear w/re-valved F4i forks all sprung for my 190 lb weight.

I will do a write-up on the project and results some day soon, but I only got one session on it before I High-siding my brains out(my fault).

The thing handled amazing and brakes felt great, I did have a problem with the Map though as I had a major flat spot. I was not pushing the bike at all as I was just trying to shake it down really, but it turned out I had already run a faster lap on the VFR than I was ever able to do my my 07 GSXR 750! :goofy:

[CandyRedRC46]

remove and blockoff pair valves and all associated hoses and hardware

these two are mainly just for weight loss though disabling the pair valves does give more accurate air/fuel ratios for who ever tunes your bike.

Interesting, I hadn't thought of that with regards to tuning.

also i would remove the snorkel and disable the flapper. the benifits are added sound a little horsepower and a little weight savings.

Not really sure if I agree with that - I've tested how the flapper works on the VTEC model and it's under load, not just low revs (in fact the airbox flapper is open all the time unless you and only closes if you are below 5,000rpm AND then whack the throttle open - I had a post on the forum here awhile back but it got lost in an upgrade). In essence - there is no possible way this mod can increase horsepower. The total weight saving must be 200 grams at most!

I will admit though that snorkel removal creates a meaty intake sound...

one thing that i would like to do to my bike but wouldnt feel comfortable on the street with is a thurn tail riser and possibly lowering the front end. this would give quicker turn in and handling.

maybe a 1 down and 2 or 3 up sprocket kit.

The geometry changes I'd be cool with, but the sprocket kit I don't think is worth it. She certainly wasn't lacking drive at Phillip Island yesterday, and on the main straight you wouldn't get any top-end speed!

also i would as you said scrap the staintunes for added cash and look into somesort of light weight custom shorty muffler, then ditch all the heat sheilding material in the tail section...

Man, she'd look wierd with no pipes under the seat!!

thanks veefer800canuck...

Another oldie but a goodie pulled from the dusty archives of the Big VFR List:

Quote:

-----Original Message-----

From: DynoWorks@aol.com [mailto:DynoWorks@aol.com]

Sent: Monday, 29 March 1999 5:20 PM

To: vfr@cs.wisc.edu

Subject: 800 snorkel dyno test (mostly data)

Hello list ...

Had the opportunity to do a back to back dyno test on the VFR800. We'll let

the numbers tell the story.

Dynojet Model 150 Chassis Dynamometer

Eastside Harley Davidson, Bellevue, Washington

DYNORUN #1, baseline, 4th gear roll-on - 3-27-99, 3:17PM

DYNORUN #5, no snorkel, 4th gear roll-on - 3-27-99, 3:22PM

DYNORUN #1 DYNORUN #5

RPM SAE hp SAE hp

3500 28.3 28.8

4000 32.1 31.7

4500 35.4 35.4

5000 39.8 40.3

5500 45.2 46.1

6000 54.4 55.3

6500 62.6 63.2

7000 69.6 69.9

7500 75.6 75.5

8000 81.1 information not available

8500 86.6 87.1

9000 90.0 91.0

9500 91.6 92.7

10000 93.2 93.8

10500 92.9 94.2

11000 90.3 91.6

11500 88.8 89.6

Magnifying the resolution of the 500 rpms nearest the hp peak follows

10000 93.2 93.8

10100 93.4 94.1

10200 93.5 94.3

10300 93.6 94.6

10400 93.3 94.6

10500 92.9 94.2

Magnifying the resolution of the 1000 rpm range nearest torque peak follows

RPM SAE ft-lb SAE ft-lb

8100 53.4 53.3

8200 53.4 53.4

8300 53.6 53.6

8400 53.6 53.7

8500 53.5 53.8

8600 53.4 53.8

8700 53.2 53.7

8800 53.0 53.6

8900 52.8 53.4

9000 52.5 53.1

Testing conditions: 29.66 in.Hg. absolute barometric pressure, Vapor

pressure .44 in. hg., ambient air temperature 49.5 deg. F. Partly cloudy.

All stock '98VFR800FI, 3,273 miles.

Subjective comment: Noticeably louder intake noise. Doesn't sound like a

sewing machine anymore. Changes the character of the engine. Feels raw,

sharper edged. I will be leaving the snorkel out for now.

Wayne Chan, WMRRA/OMRRA #326

__________________

+ ZG ST, Heli's, Fender Eliminator, Throttlemeisser, Triangle Flip+Preload, BMC Filter. 200*Fan Switch, VTR Fan Blade

- Snorkel, Flapper, Velocity Stacks. Pair Valves, and Evap Canister.

Rounded off Entries to Throttle Bodies

Motad Header and Two Brothers Exhaust

Fully heat wrapped and sealed in high temp black

Power Commander 3 USB & O2 Eliminators

Custom Tune Done By AMR SUPERBIKES

CandyRedRC46 is online now Report Post Edit/Delete Message

[Veefer800Canuck]

HAH, you had me going there, I was thinking....man, I didn't reply to this thread, did I??? Then I remembered posting that a very long time ago.

All the ballyhoo about the flapper is moot on a trackbike because unless you're entering/exiting pitlane, you're not going to be in the area where the flapper is closed anyhow. So I'd just remove it and be done with it.

And my honest opinion of the flapper in general is that Honda is trying hard to sell us a an EPA noise reducing tool disguised as a "low-end performance improvement". The RPM's that the flapper is closed at is conveniently where the EPA has the bike running at during the drive-by noise test. Coincedence? I think NOT! :rolleyes:

Look at the dyno numbers again, and you'll see that the difference throughout the rev range is just about negligeable at any given rpm, and even leans towards a slight INCREASE, albeit VERY slight.

I tossed my snorkel, ripped the flapper right out along with the actuator and left the holes right open and haven't ever pined for more low-end power or driveability. A Turbo City fuel pressure regulator cured the lean running combination of airbox and pipe and the bike runs like a Swiss Watch.

Well, before the Accord pulled out in front of me, it was a Swiss Watch. Now it's a broken Casio. :fing02:

[pres589]

Sell the VTEC for an SV650 or Ninja 636. That's what I'd do.

[Guest]

I would sell it and buy a CBR 600RR.....

[Guest]

Kevin:

How did you de-link the brakes?

Pete

[kaldek]

All the ballyhoo about the flapper is moot on a trackbike because unless you're entering/exiting pitlane, you're not going to be in the area where the flapper is closed anyhow. So I'd just remove it and be done with it.

And my honest opinion of the flapper in general is that Honda is trying hard to sell us a an EPA noise reducing tool disguised as a "low-end performance improvement". The RPM's that the flapper is closed at is conveniently where the EPA has the bike running at during the drive-by noise test. Coincedence? I think NOT! :fing02:

I tossed my snorkel, ripped the flapper right out along with the actuator and left the holes right open and haven't ever pined for more low-end power or driveability. A Turbo City fuel pressure regulator cured the lean running combination of airbox and pipe and the bike runs like a Swiss Watch.

Ah well here's the danger about that statement. The 5th gen flapper valve was closed below 5,000rpm and open above it, irrespective of throttle position.

On the 6th gen, the flapper valve is always open, except when you whack open the throttle at low rpms. At this point, it closes and stays that way until either you back off the throttle OR you hit over 5,000rpm (it may actually be 6,000rpm but I can't remember and my original post got deleted).

If enough folks are *really* interested, I'll run the test again - this time with video since I have a video camera now.

[Baileyrock]

Kevin:

How did you de-link the brakes?

Pete

Easy, ripped off every tube, line, bracket, p-valve & mounts associated with the system and ran a full F4i front end & brakes. Used the longest original rear brake line straight from the m/c to the outer two rear calipers.

This dropped around 15-20 lbs alone. :fing02:

[Baileyrock]

I guess I did start thread about my vtec track pig project, here it is with my first review.

:fing02:

http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=55058&st=0&gopid=660739entry660739

[wrwaustralia]

All the ballyhoo about the flapper is moot on a trackbike because unless you're entering/exiting pitlane, you're not going to be in the area where the flapper is closed anyhow. So I'd just remove it and be done with it.

And my honest opinion of the flapper in general is that Honda is trying hard to sell us a an EPA noise reducing tool disguised as a "low-end performance improvement". The RPM's that the flapper is closed at is conveniently where the EPA has the bike running at during the drive-by noise test. Coincedence? I think NOT! :fing02:

I tossed my snorkel, ripped the flapper right out along with the actuator and left the holes right open and haven't ever pined for more low-end power or driveability. A Turbo City fuel pressure regulator cured the lean running combination of airbox and pipe and the bike runs like a Swiss Watch.

Ah well here's the danger about that statement. The 5th gen flapper valve was closed below 5,000rpm and open above it, irrespective of throttle position.

On the 6th gen, the flapper valve is always open, except when you whack open the throttle at low rpms. At this point, it closes and stays that way until either you back off the throttle OR you hit over 5,000rpm (it may actually be 6,000rpm but I can't remember and my original post got deleted).

If enough folks are *really* interested, I'll run the test again - this time with video since I have a video camera now.

VARIABLE AIR INTAKE CONTROL VALVE (6th Generation)

The Factory Workshop Manual - Fuel System (PGM-FI/02-07)Page 5-86

The Variable Air Intake Port should be "OPENED" when idling.

Check the variable air intake port for "CLOSING" operations under the following conditions:

* with increasing engine speed quickly

- throttle angle over 38 degrees

- engine speed below 6,500 rpm

* with decreasing engine speed quickly

- throttle angle over 35 degrees

- engine speed below 6,500 rpm

Looking at these RPM and throttle angle positions, the Variable Air Intake Port (FLAPPER) has everything to do with the NEW VTEC engagment range

and nothing to do with noise emissions.

I have simply removed and plugged the vacuum hose to the Variable Air Intake Port and placed a rubber bung on the inlet tube ... leaving it open 100% of the time (why damage your airbox).

I have also installed the TPO (www.tpoparts.com) PAIR (Smog) System Block-off Plates ... a more professional option than the "old marble in the Airbox to PAIR Valve air line". I didn't follow all the instriuctions provided, in that I left the actual PAIR Valve in place and the electrical connector intake. TPO recommend disconnecting the electrical socket and removing the PAIR Valve completely. Looking at the PGM ECU wiring diagram (the PAIR and Variable Air Intake Port are on the same circuit)I thought it was best to keep this circuit intake, in case of a ECU warning or message.

I do have to say, that throttle control below 5,000 rpm has improved out of sight. I can control the engine in 100rpm increments now with no throttle "lag", instead of 300-500rpm increments and that vague throttle response. Slow speed 180 degree turns are a pleasure now.

I aslo installed a "Pipercross Performance Air Filter" when normally I upgrade to a K&N Air Filter. The reason's for the change are numerous:

(a) Pipercross are produced in the UK and are OEM parts for Triumph

(b) The Pipercross filter is 100% air filter element ... not the rectanglar insert in a plastic mount like K&N and Honda OEM filter.

© Lifetime warranty

(d) 2 Stage Foam filter element over 1.5 inches thick to provide great filtering and great airflow

(e) Used by major racing companies throughout Europe.

[kaldek]

On the 6th gen, the flapper valve is always open, except when you whack open the throttle at low rpms. At this point, it closes and stays that way until either you back off the throttle OR you hit over 5,000rpm (it may actually be 6,000rpm but I can't remember and my original post got deleted).

VARIABLE AIR INTAKE CONTROL VALVE (6th Generation)

The Factory Workshop Manual - Fuel System (PGM-FI/02-07)Page 5-86

The Variable Air Intake Port should be "OPENED" when idling.

Check the variable air intake port for "CLOSING" operations under the following conditions:

* with increasing engine speed quickly

- throttle angle over 38 degrees

- engine speed below 6,500 rpm

* with decreasing engine speed quickly

- throttle angle over 35 degrees

- engine speed below 6,500 rpm

Looking at these RPM and throttle angle positions, the Variable Air Intake Port (FLAPPER) has everything to do with the NEW VTEC engagment range

and nothing to do with noise emissions.

I have simply removed and plugged the vacuum hose to the Variable Air Intake Port and placed a rubber bung on the inlet tube ... leaving it open 100% of the time (why damage your airbox).

I'm not sure how the information provided in the service manual (nice that it's been corrected though, as the '02 manual still has info relevant to the 5th gen) means that disabling the flapper is better. Keeping the flapper valve in place would mean that during 2-valve operation the intake length is altered when you whack the throttle open, which might actually help the engine breathe.

I think the jury is still out on the 6th-gen flapper valve.

[cgrieves]

Interesting discussion. I've had my '02 VTEC for about a month now, bought for commuting, and I traded in my BMW R1100S for it.

Mine runs OK all-stock, personally I like the VTEC system as it's not intrusive apart from cruising at the turnover point, which is a good thing as that's licence-losing territory anyway. There are things that could see improvement though- mainly a rough-running flat-spot between 4-5.5K rpm, and poor fuel economy (which gets better the harder the bike is ridden, which is odd), both particularly noticeable compared to the BMW! Also mine surges when throttling on in certain circumstances: Very reminiscent of fuel starvation/low float height on a carbed engine- the bike jumps forward, then "hangs", then the power bangs in again after half a second or so.

I checked my air filter (OE type, it was OK) and decided to put a little valve in the vacuum hose to the flapper actuator, just to the side of the tank, so I can enable and disable it at will.

I've only done about 100 miles so far, but with the flapper disabled, the things I noted (before reading this thread) were:

1. Low rpm, small throttle opening response seemed improved. If the valve operates as mentioned above, this must have been me imagining things!

2. I've not been able to make it surge in the usual way, which may indicate the flapper was responsible.

3. When the motor is hot, there seems to be an additional surge at low throttle openings just as the revs approach 5000, the motor accelerates, "hangs" at 5000rpm and needs a little extra throttle to get past 5000. Again, this seems odd if the flapper isn't supposed to be actuating at this point.

I'd love to rig up some sort of indicator so that I can see what the flapper is doing while riding. Maybe a pressure gauge inline with the vacuum hose.... Any ideas?

I'll do some more riding and report back.

[Guest]

My recommendation, just like some others mentioned, is to get a track bike, best would be a 600. I had my '99 on track a few times, held up pretty good even manage to pass a few slower 600s, but it's too heavy. On top of that, if you crash and damage is not that bad, you of course still capable of riding, it's hard to get any spare parts from either event organizer or fellow enthusiasts (it happened to me, I broke brake lever backet and even though bike could still run I could not get spare brkt for quick swap). Also, if you plan to do track days more often, a/mkt track fairings make sense, but there are none for VFR (I looked everywhere). It is fun though and the best way to find out how capable this bike really is.

[CornerCarver]

I don't know what you have done or decided to do on this but I see a few posts suggesting that you sell your 6th gen and buy a dedicated track bike.

This does not seem to take into account your stated goal of adding a VFR1200 to the stable and using your 2002 VFR800 for secondary street ride (maybe when a mate from the USA visits :lurk: ) as well as an occasional street bike.

My recommendation, for what it is worth, is that now is not the time in the US to be selling a 6th gen with the recent blow out pricing offered by American Honda on left over 2007-2009 models representing a 30% + discount over normal pricing. That may not be the case down under.

I would follow the recs from above by Sebastian and Bailyrock, add some chinese plastic without lights mounted, sell the panniers and fab a light weight rear subframe, reduce weight and locate a second tank for the track.

Your call on the Staintunes, love the sound but you can find a lighter pipe, add in a 98-99 header and carbon low mount exhaust...keep us informed as you progress.

I must admit I ma no fan of the 600cc inline fours, I know they are 150 lighter than my fat azz 5th gen and are also endowed with 20-30% more hp but for track days and with an eye towards possibly competing in some local amatuer races I would stay away from that class of bike and the 60-80 guys who show up on the grid looking for a sponsor to notice that they are the next big star.

You might also want to check aroung and see if anyone is market to trade a track bike for a VFR800 with panniers, you may get a deal on a YZF7 or ZX7 or GSXR750 or even a full liter bike like an RC51. You could then add pieces to make this bike a back up street bike as well. A little varierty to go along with the V4.

[VIFFER93]

I would strip the bike to its frame, motor and swing arm. Complete a front end swap, high perf exhause, CBR body conversion and some engine work and then giggle like I crazy man when I realize for the $4,000 I spent I could have bought another "Sport Bike" for the track. I would then tromp off into the dark depths of my shop and start composing the list of things I am going to do next winter...

Seriously, turning a VFR into a track bike is not a logical choice but one I totally understand.

I would find cheap bodywork, spend some money upgrading your suspension or at least tuning it and a good set of tires. If you get hooked it will not be long before you jump off the deep end and buy/build a dedicated track bike.

This was a pretty good read about getting "set up"

http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/563/7395/Motorcycle-Article/Ben-Younger-Makes-Friends-with-the-Track.aspx

[kaldek]

I don't know what you have done or decided to do on this but I see a few posts suggesting that you sell your 6th gen and buy a dedicated track bike.

This does not seem to take into account your stated goal of adding a VFR1200 to the stable and using your 2002 VFR800 for secondary street ride (maybe when a mate from the USA visits :ohmy: ) as well as an occasional street bike.

Well, in the end I bought an '05 CBR1000RR track bike for $5,000 Australian, fully ready to race. The VFR1200 here is $27,000 on the road, so I said "feck that" and just put some money into my '02. I fitted Motad headers, had all the scratches repainted and fitted a Powercommander V. Stuff went wrong along the way and I ended up blowing $7,000 on it and some new tools, but it still cost me $15,000 less than a new VFR1200!

[VIFFER93]

I don't know what you have done or decided to do on this but I see a few posts suggesting that you sell your 6th gen and buy a dedicated track bike.

This does not seem to take into account your stated goal of adding a VFR1200 to the stable and using your 2002 VFR800 for secondary street ride (maybe when a mate from the USA visits :ohmy: ) as well as an occasional street bike.

Well, in the end I bought an '05 CBR1000RR track bike for $5,000 Australian, fully ready to race. The VFR1200 here is $27,000 on the road, so I said "feck that" and just put some money into my '02. I fitted Motad headers, had all the scratches repainted and fitted a Powercommander V. Stuff went wrong along the way and I ended up blowing $7,000 on it and some new tools, but it still cost me $15,000 less than a new VFR1200!

Great choice for a track bike and I can tell you from experience you will be ahead in the long run because CBR parts should be less expensive then CBR parts.

I hear you about the price of a new VFR1200. I would like to think that I am going to wait until they start showing up on the used market before considering one.