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Just Installed Power Commander 5 On My '06!


coderighter

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So I can't leave well enough alone. I sold my PC3 in hopes of reaching fuel injection nirvana, and I think I've reached it. Why, well you gain one more throttle table (15%), separate maps for every gear (more on this later), and Autotune.

I had checked the Dynojet site and downloaded the maps and software for the '09 PCV. There are 3 maps for the PCV. These are the same 3 maps they have for the '06-'08 PCIII. When you open the PCV maps they are the exact same as the PCIII maps, number for number. The only difference is the addition of the 15% table.

I found the PCV at More Power Racing for $279 to my door. Motorcycle Superstore had the Autotune for $199 to my door. I got Motorcycle Superstore to match More Power Racing, and I ordered the whole thing from them. More Power Racing is in Washington state and I would have had to pay sales tax. Note: The PCV comes with the O2 eliminators, so in most cases, the PCV will actually cost you less then the PCIII, unless you do the homemade eliminators.

I opened both PCIII program, with my current map, and PCV program. I copy and pasted 0%-10% then 20%-100% from my old file to a PCV file. I then made the 15% the difference between 10% and 20%. When I received the goods I installed just the PCV alone and installed my old, new map, and went for a ride. The bike runs just as before, proving the app works. So now for the Autotune.

The Autotune went right in, piece of cake. When the install is done you must calibrate the TPS, speed, gear, and temp. I took this time to do a little investigating. When I was calibrating the speed and gear, I did a run just to check the air fuel ratio in all gears and I can tell you that what gear you are in, affects mixture. Makes you wonder what they do when you take it to a dyno and they do a pull in just one gear? I'm not sure if the gear thing is the same for '02-'05, but the PCV will work just fine on them given the same physical PCIII works on '02-'08.

Anyway, I made some slight changes to the AFR targets in 5th and 6th gear to help mileage in the cruise area, other then that I went with the pre-made AFR targets that are in all three of the maps they have on line.

So, how does it run-- Outstanding! I very happy, well worth the money (sold the old PCIII to help offset the cost). 5 star Mod. I'll report the gas mileage after I get back from my trip to North Dakota (family), leaving Tuesday.

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Howdy CR; Glad your new electronics worked out for you,makes it all worth it ,that is spending the money and getting a nice improvement . Just be careful about leaning out the bike in the higher gears. Your engine is under the most load

when its in its higher gears,especially when its in the upper RPM ranges. Any self respecting drag race car will have a system,and they vary widely, that will richen up the fuel mixture or retard the ignition timing when it goes into top gear. Retarding ign. timing is another way of reducing the load on an engine . Even though I am not familiar with the PCV,I do have a PC3 on my bike and am pretty familiar with it. I dont want to see anyone scattering their

engines,so hopefully ,I can lend my experiences to you guys .

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Howdy CR; Glad your new electronics worked out for you,makes it all worth it ,that is spending the money and getting a nice improvement . Just be careful about leaning out the bike in the higher gears. Your engine is under the most load

when its in its higher gears,especially when its in the upper RPM ranges. Any self respecting drag race car will have a system,and they vary widely, that will richen up the fuel mixture or retard the ignition timing when it goes into top gear. Retarding ign. timing is another way of reducing the load on an engine . Even though I am not familiar with the PCV,I do have a PC3 on my bike and am pretty familiar with it. I dont want to see anyone scattering their

engines,so hopefully ,I can lend my experiences to you guys .

That's one whats great things about separate maps (and target AFRs) for each gear. I forgot to mention that on top of leaning out the cruise area a little (13.9), I also richen it up a little at 100% throttle as compared to the other gears. I'm thinking I'll be able to lean out the cruise into the 14's considering that the factory is going with 14.6 when it goes into closed loop steady cruise. I don't think I'll ever try and limbo that low, I think rideablity suffers at that point. By the way, the target Dynojet uses for cruise area on 6th gen is 13.7.

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So what does autotune do?

In a Power Commander you set up a table where you add or subtract a percentage of fuel from the stock setup at a given RPM and throttle position with the hopes of hitting a certain AFR. With the Autotune you are able to create a table of AFR ratios, again base on RPM, throttle position, and (in the case of the Power Commander 5) gear. You start with a table like you used to used in the old Power Commander, percentage of change. The Autotune uses a wideband O2 sensor to measure the AFR and alter the mixture to match the AFR table, realtime. The Power Commander saves the difference between the percentage table and what it takes to hit the AFR for a given throttle, RPM, and gear combo, this is called the trim table. When you get home, you can check the trims and if you like them you can update your percentage table to include them. The bike always runs on the correct AFR, updating the table with the trims just helps create a more correct start points and allows you to keep track of changes.

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In a Power Commander you set up a table where you add or subtract a percentage of fuel from the stock setup at a given RPM and throttle position with the hopes of hitting a certain AFR. With the Autotune you are able to create a table of AFR ratios, again base on RPM, throttle position, and (in the case of the Power Commander 5) gear. You start with a table like you used to used in the old Power Commander, percentage of change. The Autotune uses a wideband O2 sensor to measure the AFR and alter the mixture to match the AFR table, realtime. The Power Commander saves the difference between the percentage table and what it takes to hit the AFR for a given throttle, RPM, and gear combo, this is called the trim table. When you get home, you can check the trims and if you like them you can update your percentage table to include them. The bike always runs on the correct AFR, updating the table with the trims just helps create a more correct start points and allows you to keep track of changes.

So why even use a map? Why not let the autotune hit the correct AFR without a baseline map at all, if it just varies from it anyway?

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In a Power Commander you set up a table where you add or subtract a percentage of fuel from the stock setup at a given RPM and throttle position with the hopes of hitting a certain AFR. With the Autotune you are able to create a table of AFR ratios, again base on RPM, throttle position, and (in the case of the Power Commander 5) gear. You start with a table like you used to used in the old Power Commander, percentage of change. The Autotune uses a wideband O2 sensor to measure the AFR and alter the mixture to match the AFR table, realtime. The Power Commander saves the difference between the percentage table and what it takes to hit the AFR for a given throttle, RPM, and gear combo, this is called the trim table. When you get home, you can check the trims and if you like them you can update your percentage table to include them. The bike always runs on the correct AFR, updating the table with the trims just helps create a more correct start points and allows you to keep track of changes.

So why even use a map? Why not let the autotune hit the correct AFR without a baseline map at all, if it just varies from it anyway?

that's what I'm wondering the auto tune(wideband) should "auto tune" it everytime you ride. you should have no need for maps. It should tune on the fly to keep everything at the proper AFR no matter what mods you've done or how your riding it.

Or so I thought???

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In a Power Commander you set up a table where you add or subtract a percentage of fuel from the stock setup at a given RPM and throttle position with the hopes of hitting a certain AFR. With the Autotune you are able to create a table of AFR ratios, again base on RPM, throttle position, and (in the case of the Power Commander 5) gear. You start with a table like you used to used in the old Power Commander, percentage of change. The Autotune uses a wideband O2 sensor to measure the AFR and alter the mixture to match the AFR table, realtime. The Power Commander saves the difference between the percentage table and what it takes to hit the AFR for a given throttle, RPM, and gear combo, this is called the trim table. When you get home, you can check the trims and if you like them you can update your percentage table to include them. The bike always runs on the correct AFR, updating the table with the trims just helps create a more correct start points and allows you to keep track of changes.

So why even use a map? Why not let the autotune hit the correct AFR without a baseline map at all, if it just varies from it anyway?

that's what I'm wondering the auto tune(wideband) should "auto tune" it everytime you ride. you should have no need for maps. It should tune on the fly to keep everything at the proper AFR no matter what mods you've done or how your riding it.

Or so I thought???

I think the idea behind a map is to get you close/ballpark so that it doesn't take as long to figure everything out. I would think it could build a map on it's own, just take much longer. You would still have to tell it what A/F ratio your after. :biggrin:

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I think the idea behind a map is to get you close/ballpark so that it doesn't take as long to figure everything out. I would think it could build a map on it's own, just take much longer. You would still have to tell it what A/F ratio your after. :biggrin:

But a map isn't an A/F ratio, it's a percentage change from stock. It would make more sense that you tell it the correct A/F Ratio that you want (at a given RPM and throttle position) and it uses the wideband O2 sensor to hit this. Hmmm...

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I think the idea behind a map is to get you close/ballpark so that it doesn't take as long to figure everything out. I would think it could build a map on it's own, just take much longer. You would still have to tell it what A/F ratio your after. :biggrin:

But a map isn't an A/F ratio, it's a percentage change from stock. It would make more sense that you tell it the correct A/F Ratio that you want (at a given RPM and throttle position) and it uses the wideband O2 sensor to hit this. Hmmm...

A maps ONLY purpose is all about achieving the desired A/F ratio, that is what it's all about and the root of any Map IMO! The Wide Band 02 just allows live/real time monitoring of the A/F ratio, this(A/F) is what the dyno tuners use to adjust your map when custom building a map for your bike! :cool: And why they will be obsolete with the PCV. :huh:

There's HP a/f ratio's(13.2-13.8 to 1), there's efficiency a/f ratio's(14.6 to 1) and there's Kaboom a/f ratio's, that is what adding or subtracting fuel maps are all about.

Nothing better than Active Wide Band 02 readings for precise tuning, A/F ratio's are what you are tuning for! + or - fueling means zip w/o hitting a targeted A/F ratio. :ph34r:

btw "It would make more sense that you tell it the correct A/F Ratio that you want (at a given RPM and throttle position) and it uses the wideband O2 sensor to hit this." this is exactly what you are telling the PCV to do, hit targeted A/F ratio's at whatever rpm & tp setting you want. Having a base/ballpark map just allows it to happen much sooner instead of building one from zero.

Your really talking about the same thing, just achieving it quicker with a base map installed. Also it probably takes a much less complicated and smaller program to just correct from a ballpark map vs having to build the entire thing! wink.gif

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So why not just have the thing preprogramed to say (this is just a number) 14:1 AFR. and then the wide band would automatically adjust the AFR no matter what mods you did. Wouldn't that be the best? Then you wouldn't have any lean or rich spots in the rpm range. So in thoery it would always be the "perfect map"

Or just have two button on the unit 1 for +, 1 for -. Then you can set you own AFR just by hitting the button up or down. if this was the case you would not need a map at all the PCV would just come preloaded with the Ideal AFR that you could ajust and the WB would measure the AFR and keep it there.

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So why not just have the thing preprogramed to say (this is just a number) 14:1 AFR. and then the wide band would automatically adjust the AFR no matter what mods you did. Wouldn't that be the best? Then you wouldn't have any lean or rich spots in the rpm range. So in thoery it would always be the "perfect map"

That is exactly what you are doing with a PCV! :biggrin:

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Guest Buttonhook
So why not just have the thing preprogramed to say (this is just a number) 14:1 AFR. and then the wide band would automatically adjust the AFR no matter what mods you did. Wouldn't that be the best? Then you wouldn't have any lean or rich spots in the rpm range. So in thoery it would always be the "perfect map"

That is exactly what you are doing with a PCV! :ph34r:

Well I hoped it was... I guess I got confused with all of the different map talk. :biggrin: now the real question is exactly what years will it work on (I know 09's)

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In a Power Commander you set up a table where you add or subtract a percentage of fuel from the stock setup at a given RPM and throttle position with the hopes of hitting a certain AFR. With the Autotune you are able to create a table of AFR ratios, again base on RPM, throttle position, and (in the case of the Power Commander 5) gear. You start with a table like you used to used in the old Power Commander, percentage of change. The Autotune uses a wideband O2 sensor to measure the AFR and alter the mixture to match the AFR table, realtime. The Power Commander saves the difference between the percentage table and what it takes to hit the AFR for a given throttle, RPM, and gear combo, this is called the trim table. When you get home, you can check the trims and if you like them you can update your percentage table to include them. The bike always runs on the correct AFR, updating the table with the trims just helps create a more correct start points and allows you to keep track of changes.

So why even use a map? Why not let the autotune hit the correct AFR without a baseline map at all, if it just varies from it anyway?

that's what I'm wondering the auto tune(wideband) should "auto tune" it everytime you ride. you should have no need for maps. It should tune on the fly to keep everything at the proper AFR no matter what mods you've done or how your riding it.

Or so I thought???

On top of the getting close, then fine tuning (as Bailyrock pointed out), keep in mind that a O2 sensor needs to be hot to work so you need the map to run until you get up to temp. The PCV has a set up for temp and/or time before you start taking the info from the O2 sensor.

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Do you leave the wide band O2 sensor installed permanently? Or does it have a limited life perhaps? Ie. after you get all your maps dialled in, are you supposed to remove it and put back the OEM sensor?

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Coderighter,

Power Commander and More Power only list a PC3 for 02-06 VFRs.Did you have some inside info from them or took a chance that a PC5 would work on your 06?

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Do you leave the wide band O2 sensor installed permanently? Or does it have a limited life perhaps? Ie. after you get all your maps dialled in, are you supposed to remove it and put back the OEM sensor?

The O2 sensor is a "common" Bosch unit used in automotive apps has a rated life of 100,000 miles. There's no reason to put the factory units back in.

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Coderighter,

Power Commander and More Power only list a PC3 for 02-06 VFRs.Did you have some inside info from them or took a chance that a PC5 would work on your 06?

You're right, Dynojet doesn't make or support the PCV for any bike built before '09. We know that the VFR hasn't been changed since '02. We know there are 2 model numbers of PCIII listed for 6th gen one for '02-'05 (#111-411) and one for '06 to '08 (#126-411). Those parts number are the same hardware, the only difference is the preloaded map. The "411" is the hardware and the or 3 digit number is the "stock" map for that model. I ran a '02-'05 unit on my '06 for a year with no problem. If you look, most Honda's use the same hardware, just different maps, example, the '06 CBR600 is #117-411. Guess what? If someone is having a sell on '06 CBR600 PCIII you can get it change the map, and you're good to go.

Sorry back to your question the bike, other than color, hasn't changed from '08 to '09. Like I said before the maps for the '06-'08 PCIII are the exact same as the '09 maps for the PCV. The only difference is the addition of a 15% throttle settings that the PCIII doesn't have. Why they decided not to back support years of current bike models I don't know for sure. Maybe the parts for the PCIII are cheaper (older technology) and there's a bigger profit margin? Perhaps they have a large stock of PCIII parts they need gone? I don't know. If you want one just order one for a '09, it will work just fine.

Also, as a side note, there are 2 models of Autotune. AT-100 for the Harley folks and AT-200 for everybody else. On the Harley's, they do each cylinder separate, so the kit includes to complete units for $349. The other kit, with a single unit, is $199. So if you and a friend get together, you each save $25. The Autotune has no brains, it really a repackaged Wideband 2 unit. It only supplies the info to the PCV.

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:biggrin:

This is awesome information. Please don't forget to update this post when you get back from your trip to let us know how the mpg and performance was!

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Do you leave the wide band O2 sensor installed permanently? Or does it have a limited life perhaps? Ie. after you get all your maps dialled in, are you supposed to remove it and put back the OEM sensor?

You have to leave the Wide Band 02 installed if you want it to continually tune to ideal settings! If you went to the bottom of the Grand Canyon then to the top of Pikes Peak the Autotune would continue to try and attain the ideal a/f ratio you desire no matter what elevation, humidity or temp you might experience. :biggrin:

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You're right, Dynojet doesn't make or support the PCV for any bike built before '09. We know that the VFR hasn't been changed since '02. We know there are 2 model numbers of PCIII listed for 6th gen one for '02-'05 (#111-411) and one for '06 to '08 (#126-411). Those parts number are the same hardware, the only difference is the preloaded map. The "411" is the hardware and the or 3 digit number is the "stock" map for that model. I ran a '02-'05 unit on my '06 for a year with no problem. If you look, most Honda's use the same hardware, just different maps, example, the '06 CBR600 is #117-411. Guess what? If someone is having a sell on '06 CBR600 PCIII you can get it change the map, and you're good to go.

Sorry back to your question, the bike other than color, has changed for '08 to '09. Like I said before the maps for the '06-'08 PCIII are the exact same as the '09 maps for the PCV. The only difference is the addition of a 15% throttle settings that the PCIII doesn't have. Why they decided not to back support years of current bike models I don't know for sure. Maybe the parts for the PCIII are cheaper (older technology) and there's a bigger profit margin? Perhaps they have a large stock of PCIII parts they need gone? I don't know. If you want one just order one for a '09, it will work just fine.

Also, as a side note, there are 2 models of Autotune. AT-100 for the Harley folks and AT-200 for everybody else. On the Harley's, they do each cylinder separate, so the kit includes to complete units for $349. The other kit, with a single unit, is $199. So if you and a friend get together, you each save $25. The Autotune has no brains, it really a repackaged Wideband 2 unit. It only supplies the info to the PCV.

MVP :biggrin:

Quick question though... I was eying a gear indicator tonight, and noticed it only says it's compatible with 06-09. It reads off the ecu supposedly, and I know they did change (tweak) that in 06. Is there any ACTUAL difference, or reason it wouldn't work on an 02? I'm assuming it reads the gear in the same way the PCV would.

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You're right, Dynojet doesn't make or support the PCV for any bike built before '09. We know that the VFR hasn't been changed since '02. We know there are 2 model numbers of PCIII listed for 6th gen one for '02-'05 (#111-411) and one for '06 to '08 (#126-411). Those parts number are the same hardware, the only difference is the preloaded map. The "411" is the hardware and the or 3 digit number is the "stock" map for that model. I ran a '02-'05 unit on my '06 for a year with no problem. If you look, most Honda's use the same hardware, just different maps, example, the '06 CBR600 is #117-411. Guess what? If someone is having a sell on '06 CBR600 PCIII you can get it change the map, and you're good to go.

Sorry back to your question, the bike other than color, has changed for '08 to '09. Like I said before the maps for the '06-'08 PCIII are the exact same as the '09 maps for the PCV. The only difference is the addition of a 15% throttle settings that the PCIII doesn't have. Why they decided not to back support years of current bike models I don't know for sure. Maybe the parts for the PCIII are cheaper (older technology) and there's a bigger profit margin? Perhaps they have a large stock of PCIII parts they need gone? I don't know. If you want one just order one for a '09, it will work just fine.

Also, as a side note, there are 2 models of Autotune. AT-100 for the Harley folks and AT-200 for everybody else. On the Harley's, they do each cylinder separate, so the kit includes to complete units for $349. The other kit, with a single unit, is $199. So if you and a friend get together, you each save $25. The Autotune has no brains, it really a repackaged Wideband 2 unit. It only supplies the info to the PCV.

MVP :biggrin:

Quick question though... I was eying a gear indicator tonight, and noticed it only says it's compatible with 06-09. It reads off the ecu supposedly, and I know they did change (tweak) that in 06. Is there any ACTUAL difference, or reason it wouldn't work on an 02? I'm assuming it reads the gear in the same way the PCV would.

OO... OO.... I know this one!!

The gear indicator works by comparing the engine RPM to bike speed (output shaft speed). One of the things changed in '06 was some of the wiring (thank God). They changed several connectors it would seem that the places that they got the RPM or shaft speed had changed. The only connection that matters to Power Commanders is the throttle body connector which contains injectors and TPS. Here's a surprise, Honda uses the same one on almost every bike.

You can make it work, it just won't be plug and play. If you're OK with soldering, I can tell you what to do to make it work. Let me know.

(God, I need to call and get my OCD meds increased)

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Would it be better to have the PAIR system working or not with Autotune?

I would imagine it would be better without it.

Sound great, I want one!

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Would it be better to have the PAIR system working or not with Autotune?

I would imagine it would be better without it.

Sound great, I want one!

Yes, sorry forgot to mention that the PAIR must be by passed or the oxygen introduced will mess up your readings. It's mentioned in the manual. How many dyno shops do you think actually do this!?

I should also mention that there is not such thing as realtime mixture control with a O2 sensor. When you check the exhaust with a O2 sensor, it's post mortem, the mixture has already been made and fired. The information is only good for next time, thus another reason you must still have a map. The map is just adjusted (tuned) to be correct the next time around.

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