Had It With Vfr Electrics.

[Guest]

ARGGGGG!!!!! I NEED to VENT !!!!!!!

I went to start my bike to get to work and NOTHING!!!

F#@&*!!!

I'm going to push this 500 lb paper weight off the first damn cliff I can find!!

I last drove the bike to and from work 3 days ago - my normal 20 minute ride. Moderate city traffic. RPM usually around 3500 to 5000.

In the last 2 months since I have owned this bike I have...

Replaced with new:

the Battery

the R/R

the Stator and Flywheel (the upgraded alternator kit)

I made the following Mods:

30 amp fuse wire improvement

Added R/R power lines direct back to the battery

Done the Black Monitor wire mod (also direct to the battery now)

Dielectric on everything I can touch

I have also meter'ed out every wire I can touch and confirmed the wiring diagram layout. I checked with Honda - my VIN was not subject to the alternator recall (but I did it anyway).

For the record my bike is a 2002 VFR w ABS. This whole thing started when I discovered the R/R to Stator wires (3P plug) melted into a puddle of goo.

Also for the record - I know, without a doubt, that my 2002 wiring harness is different from Kkens wiring harness - My black monitor wire is hooked up as per the service manual and not 12 inches away on the red like Kens.

I am *told* that Japanese manufactures continually change the wiring setup, usually via the ignition switch, for insurance/regulatory reasons. This could just be duff gen - take it for what it cost ya.

I usually keep my bike on a Battery Tender but didn't for the last 3 days. All I can think is that there is some current flowing with the mods made (there was NOT a problem with leakage before the mod).

I have a Lascar voltmeter that I have been meaning to install -- that is the only hope I have left.

I am getting very sick of this bike and I don't even trust it to get me around town.

PS. Guess what? My buddies 2006 CBR 1000 just got a 6 year warranty extension on the alternator. Go figure.

[KanadianKen]

where does the mate to the Black wire off the RR go? directly to the battery?

thanks

ARGGGGG!!!!! I NEED to VENT !!!!!!!

I went to start my bike to get to work and NOTHING!!!

F#@&*!!!

I'm going to push this 500 lb paper weight off the first damn cliff I can find!!

I last drove the bike to and from work 3 days ago - my normal 20 minute ride. Moderate city traffic. RPM usually around 3500 to 5000.

In the last 2 months since I have owned this bike I have...

Replaced with new:

the Battery

the R/R

the Stator and Flywheel (the upgraded alternator kit)

I made the following Mods:

30 amp fuse wire improvement

Added R/R power lines direct back to the battery

Done the Black Monitor wire mod (also direct to the battery now)

Dielectric on everything I can touch

I have also meter'ed out every wire I can touch and confirmed the wiring diagram layout. I checked with Honda - my VIN was not subject to the alternator recall (but I did it anyway).

For the record my bike is a 2002 VFR w ABS. This whole thing started when I discovered the R/R to Stator wires (3P plug) melted into a puddle of goo.

Also for the record - I know, without a doubt, that my 2002 wiring harness is different from Kkens wiring harness - My black monitor wire is hooked up as per the service manual and not 12 inches away on the red like Kens.

I am *told* that Japanese manufactures continually change the wiring setup, usually via the ignition switch, for insurance/regulatory reasons. This could just be duff gen - take it for what it cost ya.

I usually keep my bike on a Battery Tender but didn't for the last 3 days. All I can think is that there is some current flowing with the mods made (there was NOT a problem with leakage before the mod).

I have a Lascar voltmeter that I have been meaning to install -- that is the only hope I have left.

I am getting very sick of this bike and I don't even trust it to get me around town.

PS. Guess what? My buddies 2006 CBR 1000 just got a 6 year warranty extension on the alternator. Go figure.

[Guest]

where does the mate to the Black wire off the RR go? directly to the battery?

thanks

Into the ignition switch.

System Diagram 19-2

As discussed here

[Guest]

BTW Ken - I have no doubt that your harness was wired the way it was - the pictures prove it.

I think Honda changes the wiring as they evolve things. I actually think that your Black sensing wire was a BETTER setup than my setup. To much can go wrong in the ignition switch assemble - to many moving parts.

Have you ever check a 2001 Service Manual to see how they show the wiring?

[Guest]

My Bad.

It was the battery. And it was the NEW battery.

I put the meter on it and as soon as I turned the ignition on it dropped to 8.5 Volts. It had been at 13.4 on the tender but as soon as I unplugged the Battery Tender it dropped to 12.5 in less than 1 minute. Weird.

I dropped in my 2 year old Yausa and it's working fine.

To be fair it was a "cheap" $100 battery from Taiwan that I put in at the start of all my electrical problems - it's now at the battery shop for a check up. I want my money back so I can get a proper YTZ 12 S or YTZ 14 S.

---- Once again the Viffer was pulled back from the edge of the cliff ---

[thx1139]

Also for the record - I know, without a doubt, that my 2002 wiring harness is different from Kkens wiring harness - My black monitor wire is hooked up as per the service manual and not 12 inches away on the red like Kens.

I think Honda changes the wiring as they evolve things. I actually think that [Ken's] black sensing wire was a BETTER setup than my setup. To much can go wrong in the ignition switch assemble - to many moving parts.

Have you ever check a 2001 Service Manual to see how they show the wiring?

Talus is exactly right about the ignition switch. We can expect resistance to vary across the switch with age, current, temperature. The same goes for the other connections in the series.

That is why the monitor wire is supposed to be out there. The R/R monitors the drops and ramps up to maintain voltage out there. You can remove the monitor wire and put it on the battery post (Another crimped connector? Shame on you Ken! :o ) but your sensitive electronics are still drawing downstream of the ignition switch. -and now the R/R has lost it's feedback capability...

[Guest]

I disagree with you THX.

BTW - The caps below aren't yelling it's the terminology/labeling used on the VFR wiring diagram

My bike is a 2002 but it is definitely wired differently from Kkens (we should compare our VIN's). However, after metering out my harness and checking voltages with the factory R/R black wire set-up VS the modified direct-to-the-battery black wire -- I support the direct-to-the-battery modification and have made it on my 2002 VFR.

On MY bike, as per the Service manual wiring diagram, the black/white (or White/black as the digram labels it) goes to three places:

1. to the ENGINE STOP/STARTER SWITCH then out to the ENGINE STOP RELAY when your in the "RUN" position;
   
2. to the FUSE BOX (10amp - "C" fuse) then out to the IGNITION SWITCH; and,
   
3. to the BANK ANGLE SENSOR then ENGINE STOP RELAY.
   

In truth, it is more accurate to say that the black wire senses voltage at the FUSE BOX or better yet at the STARTER RELAY SWITCH (thru the IGNITION SWITCH). And the STARTER RELAY SWITCH is directly connected to the battery via the MAIN FUSE "A" 30A (this one is under the little rubber cover over the relay. BTW - there is also a spare 30 amp fuse in that rubber cover if you ever need it. Either way, shortening the loop to read directly off the battery is cheaper and more reliable than replacing the ignition switch (or any of the others for that matter).

The red/white wires from the R/R feed to:

1. the battery (through the MAIN FUSE "B" 30A - the one that gets toasty);
   
2. the ENGINE STOP RELAY; then,
   
3. to the ECM, as well as a few other places along the way.
   

It is important to note that the R/R is diagrammed to feed the battery. I would lay bets that Honda engineers planned this as the R/R's primary job. That it just happens to feed the ECM is no different a requirement than feeding the ignition coils or lights etc. The real issue is the power source. No battery charging = no riding. You might as well buy a bus pass.

Oh - and do not forget that the return ground wire on all connections is every bit as important to the eletrical circuit as the feed. Without a good ground you're just as screwed.

So here is the problem as I see it. Brand new from the factory the ENGINE STOP/STARTER SWITCH and the IGNITION SWITCH are pristine, clean, and make excellent contact. Now drive your bike for a while, park it in the rain, put the key in and out (and turn it) a few hundred times. Rattle up and down the road enough times to loosen your kickstand bolt (if you don't know what I'm talking about - ask or get used to picking your bike up off the road). Anyway, that pristine, clean connection soon begins to be a dirty, dusty, spotty connection. Resistance begins to go up, and the black wire simply sees this a lack of voltage and tells the R/R to pump out more.

Now -- with the R/R pumping out a bunch of voltage, either the R/R fails, the stator fails, the MAIN FUSE "B" 30A wire fails, or the battery fails. Pick your poison. And don't forget the trio of death (R/R, stator, and battery) are all capable of taking each other out on their own with no help from a rogue black sensing wire.

Really, the million dollar question you have to ask is WHY did Honda run the black wire to the ENGINE STOP/STARTER SWITCH, ENGINE STOP RELAY, IGNITION SWITCH and the BANK ANGLE SENSOR.

Well the the ENGINE STOP RELAY and BANK ANGLE SENSOR are there to shut the bike off obviously. As is the ENGINE STOP/STARTER SWITCH.

That only leaves the IGNITION SWITCH. Pure speculation on my part (with some help from the local motorcycle wreckers), is that modifications to the ignition switch wiring are applauded in Japan and prevent theft (someone hacking the ignition). I am also told the Japanese routinely change the ignition wiring every couple of years and many even be regulated to do so. Again this is all speculation. Kken's original harness may have been from a 2001 or a 2003 for all I know.

What I do know is that on my bike I have upgraded the MAIN FUSE "B" 30A wire, plus added two more wires directly from the R/R directly back to the battery (fuses in these lines close to the battery), and ran the black sensing wire directly back to the battery as well (with a fuse). I also added a voltmeter where I can see it - this will SAVE YOUR ASS! The result is a much more stable voltage and I'm hoping longer R/R, stator, and battery life. I still need to finish the grounding wire upgrades.

Since the new red/white wires to the battery connect directly out into the old (improved) MAIN FUSE "B" 30A wire (everything meets at the battery positive terminal), any power needs are quickly met. Besides, the factory system from the R/R is still totally in place (except for the black wire) - the new wires just adds direct charging and sensing directly at the battery. How fast does electricity move anyway?

The worst thing is, I think that if you have a toasty MAIN FUSE "B" 30A fuse wire, simply fixing that one wire will not be enough. In fact you may end up with a bigger problem right after you fix that wire - like I did. Then again maybe I was just unlucky. Leaving that black wire in it's factory configuration is fine IF you keep your ignition switch and all the other connection in pristine condition (good luck). If you do leave everything stock - do yourself a favor and put a voltmeter where you can see it - that is the only way you will be able to confirm that your electrical system is operating properly. If you run any farkel like heated grips, I would also suggest an ammeter as well.

BTW - I have the 2002 VFR wiring diagram blown up to 3' x 4' and stuck up on the garage wall now. It's very handy.

BTW2 - I know the difference between voltage and current. The term voltage is used here to keep everyone on the same page.

[Thumper 8]

That only leaves the IGNITION SWITCH. Pure speculation on my part (with some help from the local motorcycle wreckers), is that modifications to the ignition switch wiring are applauded in Japan and prevent theft (someone hacking the ignition). I am also told the Japanese routinely change the ignition wiring every couple of years and many even be regulated to do so. Again this is all speculation. Kken's original harness may have been from a 2001 or a 2003 for all I know.

Just a thought - there is a standard ignition immobilizer in European and Japanese 6th gens (probably other markets too?) - could expain some difference in ignition wiring, although it was introduced in 2003 and you have a 2002 :blink: :

FROM HONDA UK:

Honda were the first manufacturer to introduce their own immobiliser system onto mass-production motorcycles.

Honda’s H.I.S.S. (Honda Ignition Security System) has been around for almost a decade and has undergone refinements to keep ahead of bike thieves.

H.I.S.S. features a fail-safe electronic interlock that prevents the engine from being started in any way other than using the motorcycle's two original keys. Totally disabling the engine at the very heart of its ignition system, the system cannot be bypassed by either hot-wiring the ignition or exchanging the ignition switch module, thus effectively deterring joyriders and greatly reducing the possibility of ride-away theft.

A highly visible red warning LED is built into the instrument panel of the bike which warns-off potential thieves by constantly blinking at a five-second interval for a period of 24 hours, then switching off while the Ignition Security system itself remains fully active and alert. A large, diamond-shaped H.I.S.S. sticker on top of the fuel tank cover clearly indicates the presence of this highly effective security system, providing a strong message for would-be bike thieves to look elsewhere for easier pickings.

Honda's H.I.S.S. 2 was launched in 2003 and by passing Thatcham’s five-minute attack test won Category 2 approval from them. What sets the new system apart from its predecessor is a secure bracket, which holds the Electronic Control Unit (ECU) in place, making its removal almost impossible. The new system was developed by Honda in conjunction with vehicle alarm specialist, Datatool.

[Guest]

Apologies if this has already been discussed, its a little confusing trying to follow the various threads on the subject. Does anyone have an explanation why the schematics differ between ABS/std in regard to rr monitor wire? At least I think they're different, I'm not exactly a wizard at reading schematics.

According to the schematic supplements in my '07 manual, ABS goes to bank angle sensor, fuse block, stop switch. Non-ABS goes directly to battery??

after '05 ABS type

after '05 STANDARD type

[turtlecreek]

Apologies if this has already been discussed, its a little confusing trying to follow the various threads on the subject. Does anyone have an explanation why the schematics differ between ABS/std in regard to rr monitor wire? At least I think they're different, I'm not exactly a wizard at reading schematics.

According to the schematic supplements in my '07 manual, ABS goes to bank angle sensor, fuse block, stop switch. Non-ABS goes directly to battery??

after '05 ABS type

after '05 STANDARD type

'cause they red kens 'how to'! :blink:

[KanadianKen]

SOlution - everyone sell your bikes to me, they are garbage anyways, and I'll take the necessary steps to scrap them out. I will pay you $2,000 per bike, it must be year 2002 or newer. Newer than 2002 means $200 less for every year newer. LEss hassles mean less fun........ :joystick:

[Guest]

Apologies if this has already been discussed, its a little confusing trying to follow the various threads on the subject. Does anyone have an explanation why the schematics differ between ABS/std in regard to rr monitor wire? At least I think they're different, I'm not exactly a wizard at reading schematics.

According to the schematic supplements in my '07 manual, ABS goes to bank angle sensor, fuse block, stop switch. Non-ABS goes directly to battery??

after '05 ABS type

after '05 STANDARD type

Whoa! Great pickup on the 2005's on.

The Service manual for 2002 only shows the Standard (Non-ABS) schematic --> it looks just like the 2005 ABS setup you show (at least the parts I can see).

There you have it - it doesn't matter which way you wire it up. I like the straight to the battery setup.

2002 VFR Stator and RR wiring diagram - STANDARD